Buying another Mooney, need advice

[jetpilot12]

Well, I have decided to sell my pride and joy, 1963 M20C and upgrade to a newer K model.

 What should I look for? What should I be afraid of? 

Any advice will be greatly appreciated ☺️

 

Thank you for your time,

Jon

 

[bonal]

You should be afraid of not finding another Mooney that looks as nice as yours

[jetpilot12]

Thank you for the compliment but, She didn't look like that when I bought it. I spent a lot of time and money on this plane. 

In my humble opinion, it's one of the nicest you will ever find. I will be adding it to the for sale column 

in a couple of months. Don't really want to sell her until the end of summer. 

[peevee]

a 252 if budget allows, though there have been some very nice bravos for not much more than a nice 252 lately.

there's always.. the rocket....

I'd want speed brakes, the long range tanks are nice but on a 252 I wouldn't say they're a must have. I kind of find them to be more headache than they're worth. A good engine monitor of course...

[jetpilot12]

I was told that the engine in the Bravo has a reputation for not making TBO. 

[jrwilson]

2 hours ago, jetpilot12 said:

Well, I have decided to sell my pride and joy, 1963 M20C and upgrade to a newer K model.

 What should I look for? What should I be afraid of? 

Any advice will be greatly appreciated ☺️

 

Thank you for your time,

Jon

 

Exactly what I did and it has been great!  I got a 231 w inter cooler and Gamis and speed brakes, built in O2, and all kinds of gadgets.  I've loved the extra speed, range, room, performance and creature comforts (reclining seats, etc).  The cost per trip is about the same as my C, faster but more fuel burn, except with longer flights when the extra range kicks in, alleviating a fuel stop and really dropping the cost in comparison.

[peevee]

4 minutes ago, jetpilot12 said:

I was told that the engine in the Bravo has a reputation for not making TBO. 

I'd take it over any of the t360 variations but that just me.

[gsxrpilot]

Hmmm... I went through this very same situation at this same time last summer.  I sold a C, that at the time might have been the nicest available in the country. And I bought an M20K 252.  I looked at 231's, 252's, Encore's and Bravo's. I also briefly looked at an Eagle and an Ovation.  My thought process was to try and stay in the same "gallons per mile" ball park as my C. That really eliminated the Bravo's. The Eagle and Ovations are not turbo and if I was not going turbo a J was a much more economical choice.  I really wanted a turbo and the ability to cruise in the flight levels. I still think about what it would be like to own a Bravo, but I know my financial limitations and the Bravo is in a whole different bracket when it comes to fuel burn, maintenance and engine overhaul costs.

So after narrowing my search to an M20K, I decided the Encore would be best, but there were none available for sale at the time, and previous Encores had sold for a hefty premium. My search found 231's to be in the $70K to $90K range, 252 to be in the $110 to $140 range and the Encore's that had sold previously started at about $180.  The running costs of all seemed to be in the same range. The maintenance costs are lowest for the 252's and Encores on average. Although many owners have learned how to really take care of their 231's. My thought process was that since the whole time I owned my C, I'd always wished it was an E. And I didn't want to buy a 231 and go every day wishing it was a 252.  Now I really wanted an Encore for the additional useful load, but as I said, none were available AND a 252 can be converted to an Encore quite reasonably.  I also talked to a lot of 231 owners, and not to disparage that model, but nearly all of them in private said they'd rather have had a 252.

Finally this MAPA Log article sealed it for me and I was off shopping for 252's and nothing else. http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20K252_evaluation_report.htm

If you go searching for a 252, here's what I'd be looking for.

1. A good autopilot. Something like a KFC150 which has a flight director.
2. Altitude pre-select/vertical speed (since you'll have electric trim, you might as well have it.) (Very expensive to add later)
3. WAAS GPS - larger screens like a 530 over a 430.
4. Useful Load - K's are not known for great useful load, so get the best you can. I bought one with a LOADED panel that I could clean up and regain UL.
5. Speed brakes (electric are better than vacuum only because you can easily remove all the vacuum with a panel upgrade)
6. An engine monitor (I immediately swapped out the EDM700 for an EDM900 for better fuel flow and overall engine management) $6K installed.
7. Recently sealed tanks (I didn't do this :-(
8. Encore upgrade already done - If you can get this, disregard all the above :-)

Since you're just over in LA, come over to Austin and go for a flight in mine and see what you think.

[Godfather]

33 minutes ago, jetpilot12 said:

I was told that the engine in the Bravo has a reputation for not making TBO. 

Having gone through quite a few log books I can't say I've seen too many K's make tbo that were for sale. In the end it's all about how the engine was operated. 

[carusoam]

JP,

I think what you have been told may be some misleading detail.  

The Bravo is the modified version of the TLS with a TSIO540. The Alpha model had some challenges with CHTs.  The Bravo model came with some oil cooled wet heads, all is good again...

It was an example of why some people don't want to fly the A model of anything.... it was more of an ownership expense.

On powerful Mooney birds...

Making TBO is generally expected...

Often, a TOP OH occurs at the halfway point.

It is possible to run the engine LOP with good CHT control to avoid needing to change cylinders.

Know that some users bought their powerful plane to run them as fast as practical.  That includes using a set of cylinders along the way...

Get to know the seller. If he explains how he operated the engine, you have a chance of holding off the top OH...

Pictures from inside the cylinder can tell a lot about their surfaces.  A Compression test is standard, but may not tell very much...

If you were hoping to make the choice a little easier...  Sorry I didn't help...

Bravos are great Mooneys.  So are Rockets, so are 252s, and 262s, and 231s.... 

@gsxrpilot has given great examples of going from a C to a powerful K.

I went from a C to a powerful R.

It isn't easy to always fly LOP with great CHT control.  Sometimes fire breathing dragon mode is so easy.... your choice!

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Godfather]

35 minutes ago, carusoam said:

It isn't easy to always fly LOP with great CHT control.  Sometimes fire breathing dragon mode is so easy.... your choice!

It really takes discipline to not go full power...although it helps if fuel is pushing $6 a gallon. 

[peevee]

26 minutes ago, Godfather said:

It really takes discipline to not go full power...although it helps if fuel is pushing $6 a gallon. 

I basically always run in fast mode. Seeing 10 or so knots tick away at reduced flow is too painful.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Godfather said:

It really takes discipline to not go full power...although it helps if fuel is pushing $6 a gallon. 

Move South. It's in the $3.35-$3.52 range here in Lower Alabama.

[donkaye]

4 hours ago, jetpilot12 said:

I was told that the engine in the Bravo has a reputation for not making TBO. 

My 1st engine went to 2295 hours after the Bravo conversion at 1300 hours.  On the 2nd engine I've had to pull 2 cylinders for leaky intake valve guides.  The plane was down for a couple of weeks for that.  The Bravo is the steal of the Century right now IMHO having owned mine for the past 25 years.  I've flown and taught in nearly every model Mooney and the Bravo is second only to the Acclaim at 4-5 times the price.  To me it would be important to get one without the G1000 with its associated upgrade issues, and upgrade it to the greatest extent you can afford.  I upgraded my avionics past any Acclaim out there. (They still cannot get TargetTrend, one of the most valuable items to have as part of your traffic solution).

[Godfather]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

Move South. It's in the $3.35-$3.52 range here in Lower Alabama.

I was referring to a few years ago. But I agree, similar to the average car speeds I see on the highway, I've been pushing harder on the go lever lately. 

[jetpilot12]

9 hours ago, donkaye said:

My 1st engine went to 2295 hours after the Bravo conversion at 1300 hours.  On the 2nd engine I've had to pull 2 cylinders for leaky intake valve guides.  The plane was down for a couple of weeks for that.  The Bravo is the steal of the Century right now IMHO having owned mine for the past 25 years.  I've flown and taught in nearly every model Mooney and the Bravo is second only to the Acclaim at 4-5 times the price.  To me it would be important to get one without the G1000 with its associated upgrade issues, and upgrade it to the greatest extent you can afford.  I upgraded my avionics past any Acclaim out there. (They still cannot get TargetTrend, one of the most valuable items to have as part of your traffic solution).

What is the fuel burn compared to the 231 and 252?

[jetpilot12]

13 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Hmmm... I went through this very same situation at this same time last summer.  I sold a C, that at the time might have been the nicest available in the country. And I bought an M20K 252.  I looked at 231's, 252's, Encore's and Bravo's. I also briefly looked at an Eagle and an Ovation.  My thought process was to try and stay in the same "gallons per mile" ball park as my C. That really eliminated the Bravo's. The Eagle and Ovations are not turbo and if I was not going turbo a J was a much more economical choice.  I really wanted a turbo and the ability to cruise in the flight levels. I still think about what it would be like to own a Bravo, but I know my financial limitations and the Bravo is in a whole different bracket when it comes to fuel burn, maintenance and engine overhaul costs.

So after narrowing my search to an M20K, I decided the Encore would be best, but there were none available for sale at the time, and previous Encores had sold for a hefty premium. My search found 231's to be in the $70K to $90K range, 252 to be in the $110 to $140 range and the Encore's that had sold previously started at about $180.  The running costs of all seemed to be in the same range. The maintenance costs are lowest for the 252's and Encores on average. Although many owners have learned how to really take care of their 231's. My thought process was that since the whole time I owned my C, I'd always wished it was an E. And I didn't want to buy a 231 and go every day wishing it was a 252.  Now I really wanted an Encore for the additional useful load, but as I said, none were available AND a 252 can be converted to an Encore quite reasonably.  I also talked to a lot of 231 owners, and not to disparage that model, but nearly all of them in private said they'd rather have had a 252.

Finally this MAPA Log article sealed it for me and I was off shopping for 252's and nothing else. http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20K252_evaluation_report.htm

If you go searching for a 252, here's what I'd be looking for.

1. A good autopilot. Something like a KFC150 which has a flight director.
2. Altitude pre-select/vertical speed (since you'll have electric trim, you might as well have it.) (Very expensive to add later)
3. WAAS GPS - larger screens like a 530 over a 430.
4. Useful Load - K's are not known for great useful load, so get the best you can. I bought one with a LOADED panel that I could clean up and regain UL.
5. Speed brakes (electric are better than vacuum only because you can easily remove all the vacuum with a panel upgrade)
6. An engine monitor (I immediately swapped out the EDM700 for an EDM900 for better fuel flow and overall engine management) $6K installed.
7. Recently sealed tanks (I didn't do this :-(
8. Encore upgrade already done - If you can get this, disregard all the above :-)

Since you're just over in LA, come over to Austin and go for a flight in mine and see what you think.

Thank you Paul! I would love to see your 252. Maybe in August, I have vacation then. I will be in touch.

[Godfather]

31 minutes ago, jetpilot12 said:

What is the fuel burn compared to the 231 and 252?

My WAG for the two planes flying the same TAS would be 2.5 to 3 gph.  Probably around $2k if flying 150 hrs per year. 

[mike_elliott]

14 hours ago, jetpilot12 said:

I was told that the engine in the Bravo has a reputation for not making TBO. 

The Bravo engine is one of the strongest engines around. It has far better cylinders than the continentals used on Ovations and Acclaims. It doesn't have the Achilles heel starter adaptor the Conti's have. DIrect oiling of the exhaust valves (the Bravo mod) makes this engine easy to run to TBO and beyond. It's weaknesses are you can only put Slick mags on it, and well, they are less than optimal IMO. Running it LOP is difficult mostly because of the slick mags, thus figure on about 18 GPH burn. The exhaust system needs to be checked fairly closely every oil change, as if it has been abused, it will show up here. Run the engine at 28/2400, 1600 TIT and it should last a long long time.  

[jetpilot12]

21 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

The Bravo engine is one of the strongest engines around. It has far better cylinders than the continentals used on Ovations and Acclaims. It doesn't have the Achilles heel starter adaptor the Conti's have. DIrect oiling of the exhaust valves (the Bravo mod) makes this engine easy to run to TBO and beyond. It's weaknesses are you can only put Slick mags on it, and well, they are less than optimal IMO. Running it LOP is difficult mostly because of the slick mags, thus figure on about 18 GPH burn. The exhaust system needs to be checked fairly closely every oil change, as if it has been abused, it will show up here. Run the engine at 28/2400, 1600 TIT and it should last a long long time.  

With an 18gph burn, the Bravo, seems to be a lot more to operate than the others. 

[peevee]

2 minutes ago, jetpilot12 said:

With an 18gph burn, the Bravo, seems to be a lot more to operate than the others. 

You can pull it back. I can run 14 to 15gph in the rocket, I'm sure the bravo will do the same. I just don't.

[mike_elliott]

18GPH vs 15 GPH LOP in an ovation, and you are going higher and faster in a Bravo than any other Mooney except an Acclaim. Your MPG will be better most of the time, plus you will save maintenance $ over the life of the engine. An Ovation will outrun a Bravo down low by a few kts, but after about 9K, its game over.

a 231 or 252 is not in the same "personal airliner" space, but they are very nice planes for their mission. My point is dont let some hearsay about Bravo engine weakness steer you away from one. They are stout motors. Like Don, I have a bunch of time in all Mooney models except an A or a mite, and the Bravo is on the top of the list. 

[donkaye]

2 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

18GPH vs 15 GPH LOP in an ovation, and you are going higher and faster. Your MPG will be better most of the time, plus you will save maintenance $ over the life of the engine. 

Going Eastbound at 17,000 feet (my comfortable altitude) with typical tailwinds, I usually see speeds between 225 and 245 knots at 75% power.  You will not be seeing those kinds of speed in a non Rocket K Model.  The only time I saw a lot better was a coupled of months ago ferrying an Acclaim back to Chicago.  At FL190 I saw 264 knots for most of the flight.

[mike_elliott]

I got your 264 and raise you 89

 

[peevee]

12 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Going Eastbound at 17,000 feet (my comfortable altitude) with typical tailwinds, I usually see speeds between 225 and 245 knots at 75% power.  You will not be seeing those kinds of speed in a non Rocket K Model.  The only time I saw a lot better was a coupled of months ago ferrying an Acclaim back to Chicago.  At FL190 I saw 264 knots for most of the flight.

Probably not going to see 230 ish in a rocket at 170, higher sure. I'd expect about 215ish. The difference is slight speed wise. The difference in weight and balance is larger.