Buying another Mooney, need advice

[Jerry 5TJ]

You can make CapEx resemble OpEx by borrowing. 

Find a good MU2 for $700, borrow $500 and CapEx is ~ same as for 252.  

Yes, OpEx will be noticeably higher.  

Keep your MU2 well insured and your estate will recoup most of that CapEx money.  

 

 

[chrisk]

33 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'd actually like to have an MU2... with a pair of Garrett's that I certainly can't afford to feed or maintain.

As I evaluate the budget for airplane ownership, there are two distinct categories, CapEx and OpEx. I briefly looked at Bravos as the CapEx (purchase price) was in my budget. But I decided the OpEx of a Bravo which includes fuel, oil, annuals, and engine fund, etc, exceeded my budget and was significantly higher than a M20K. And of course, the OpEx of an Acclaim or the MU2 is even higher.

When comparing the 231, 252/Encore, the OpEx is virtually the same and only the CapEx is different. So it was an easy decision to make to spend the extra CapEx to get the best possible plane without moving up into the next OpEx category. And with the better resale value of the 252's, the CapEx is actually reduced and the ability to upgrade the 252 to an Encore will improve the CapEx number even further. 

Just my $0.02 on how I arrived at the decision on the 252.

I'd love to have a L39 Albatros, but the OpEx is well beyond my budget, even if the CapEx is in budget.   And like you, I find the CapEx of a Bravo to be in my budget.  It's fear of the OpEx that keeps me from buying one.

I agree with most of what you say, but I would make an adjustment.  Take 5%of the CapEx difference between a 252 and a 231, and call it OpEx (basically the cost of money).    Assuming the CapEx difference is $40K, the 252 cost an additional $2000 a year.  --No disagreement that the 252 is a better plane, and for the same price I would prefer one.

 

    

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, chrisk said:

And if I had a Bravo, I would be lusting after an Acclaim.

So true...and I am at KGEU training a new Acclaim owner this week thinking how nice the Acclaim S is. 115F outside? no problem, just turn the AC to max. Going to Prescott last night, I am reminded of the 185 TAS on 14.8 GPH LOP 10.5K capability of the Acclaim. Sweet. Oh did I mention the AC makes the pattern work in this balmy 115 deg heat bearable? Operating costs of the Bravo are probably less than the Acclaim and more in line with a 252 with the exception of fuel burn. You have to figure on 18-20 GPH in the Bravo and can wind the Acclaim down to less. Turbo maintenance will be less on the Bravo but exhaust maintenance higher. Cylinders should be considerably less on the Bravo than any Conti. and the starter/adaptor of the Conti's will be a 2K surprise you wish wouldn't pop up at the worst times.

All in, the fuel burn of the Bravo is the only real drawback, and if 3-5 GPH more is making one queezy in the wallet, one should be thinking J. Right now, A good Bravo will go north of 180K. A Bravo that needs $$ put in will be less, but then it will be north of 180K all in. A good 252 goes for ?

Paul, besides all the downtime, when you get your 252 up to snuff, about what would be its "all in" costs?

Well, it looks like its only going to get to 112 today, I might have to go out and get a sweater

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

I'd love to have a L39 Albatros, but the OpEx is well beyond my budget, even if the CapEx is in budget.   And like you, I find the CapEx of a Bravo to be in my budget.  It's fear of the OpEx that keeps me from buying one.
I agree with most of what you say, but I would make an adjustment.  Take 5%of the CapEx difference between a 252 and a 231, and call it OpEx (basically the cost of money).    Assuming the CapEx difference is $40K, the 252 cost an additional $2000 a year.  --No disagreement that the 252 is a better plane, and for the same price I would prefer one.
 
    

You're exactly right about the cost of the money. And that figured into my calculations. I figured that the $2000 per year was the true cost to own and fly a 252 above the cost to own and fly a 231. I'm not borrowing the money but pulling it from investments costs the same. It might actually be cheaper if I borrowed the money. But I sleep better knowing I didn't.



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[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

All in, the fuel burn of the Bravo is the only real drawback, and if 3-5 GPH more is making one queezy in the wallet, one should be thinking J.

The fuel burn difference between my previous Bravo and my current 231 is more like 11+ GPH. That's $8,000/yr just in fuel differences flying 150 hours a year.

[mike_elliott]

1 minute ago, KLRDMD said:

The fuel burn difference between my previous Bravo and my current 231 is more like 11+ GPH. That's $8,000/yr just in fuel differences flying 150 hours a year.

Yea, I was comparing it to an acclaim in my post when I responded to Chris saying

And if I had a Bravo, I would be lusting after an Acclaim

Now if we were comparing your 231 to Joes J at 9000', Joes J goes 160 TAS on 8.3 GPH, has a much lower CAPex and Oex and saves over 2K a year in fuel over a 231.

Financially, you seem to have a nice fit with your resources and your 231, Ken. Joe has a nice fit with his J, Don has a nice fit with his Bravo, and Chuck loves his TBM850 and can handle the Oex without losing sleep. Some struggle just to keep their C in the family and hide the discussion of costs behind acronyms like AMU's

Pick you model based on mission, Get the best you can afford reasonably without having to have a brother in family law, don't buy the "cheap one" hoping for the "deal" that no one else ever gets thinking you will be "the chosen lucky one" prebuy the previous owner(s) as much as you do the plane, and for heavens sake, don't let it sit outside on the ramp like a poor F model I see here in Glendale AZ today having the 115 deg sun destroy it. I felt just l like I do when I have seen a dog locked up in a car in Florida. If you cant afford to take proper care of it, please just pass on it until you can.

 .

 

[Godfather]

2 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

The fuel burn difference between my previous Bravo and my current 231 is more like 11+ GPH. That's $8,000/yr just in fuel differences flying 150 hours a year.

I find it hard to believe that after owning both aircraft you honestly think that flying at the same TAS / altitude you would need over 11 gph extra in the m20m.  I could put another airframe in the wind at almost that speed for that amount of fuel. 

[KLRDMD]

Just now, Godfather said:

I find it hard to believe that after owning both aircraft you honestly think that flying at the same TAS / altitude you would need over 11 gph extra in the m20m.  I could put another airframe in the wind at almost that speed for that amount of fuel. 

The way I fly both airplanes, there is an 11+ GPH difference in fuel flow. The 231 cannot possibly go as fast as a Bravo can so comparing maximum speeds isn't realistic. Comparing how each airplane is flown in real life conditions is appropriate and does, as I have said, show an 11+ GPH difference in fuel flow (that gives the Bravo about a 25-30 kt speed advantage over the 231).

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Pick you model based on mission, Get the best you can afford reasonably without having to have a brother in family law, don't buy the "cheap one" hoping for the "deal" that no one else ever gets thinking you will be "the chosen lucky one" prebuy the previous owner(s) as much as you do the plane, and for heavens sake, don't let it sit outside on the ramp like a poor F model I see here in Glendale AZ today having the 115 deg sun destroy it. I felt just l like I do when I have seen a dog locked up in a car in Florida. If you cant afford to take proper care of it, please just pass on it until you can.

Truth!

[Godfather]

I guess my question is can the bravo be throttled back 30 knots and run peak or lop while keeping the tit in check?

i run my 310hp at 11 gph lop all the time I'm not going somewhere.  Still plenty fast...

[flyer7324]

Keep what you have and know. You won't gain anything measurable by upgrading in the long run.


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[donkaye]

6 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

The way I fly both airplanes, there is an 11+ GPH difference in fuel flow. The 231 cannot possibly go as fast as a Bravo can so comparing maximum speeds isn't realistic. Comparing how each airplane is flown in real life conditions is appropriate and does, as I have said, show an 11+ GPH difference in fuel flow (that gives the Bravo about a 25-30 kt speed advantage over the 231).

My numbers on the 231 say at 75% power ROP it's 13 gph compared to the Bravo at 18 gph at 75% power.

[donkaye]

6 hours ago, Godfather said:

I guess my question is can the bravo be throttled back 30 knots and run peak or lop while keeping the tit in check?

i run my 310hp at 11 gph lop all the time I'm not going somewhere.  Still plenty fast...

Yes.

[donkaye]

8 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

And if I had a Bravo, I would be lusting after an Acclaim

Not me.  Those with an Acclaim would be lusting after mine...except for the little extra speed of the Acclaim.

[KLRDMD]

6 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

The way I fly both airplanes, there is an 11+ GPH difference in fuel flow. 

 

4 minutes ago, donkaye said:

My numbers on the 231 say at 75% power ROP it's 13 gph compared to the Bravo at 18 gph at 75% power.

That could very well be true, but that's not the way *I fly the airplanes*.  The TSIO-540 in the Bravo will live a long and happy life, probably without a top overhaul, running at 75% power. My Bravo went to 2,200 hours before it was overhauled but it took 19.4 GPH in cruise to keep the engine numbers happy. Run a TSIO-360 as in a 231 at 75% power and you'll be doing at least one and probably two top overhauls before TBO. I'll fly a TSIO-540 at 75% power but I won't fly a TSIO-360 over 65% power. I fly my 231 at 9.0 (+/- 0.2) GPH in cruise. That's an 11.4 GPH difference in fuel flow *the way I fly the airplanes* that I've actually owned and maintained.

Feel free to run your Bravo, your 231 or any other airplane where you feel appropriate.

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

Not me.  Those with an Acclaim would be lusting after mine...except for the little extra speed of the Acclaim.

Come on over to Phoenix tomorrow Don, do a few hrs pattern work without AC
I'll be here doing just that, but am fortunate to be in an Air conditioned Acclaim S.

And while I don't have an Acclaim, I lust after a TBM, but at my age, that lacks fiscal substance, so I just have to settle for schlepping a bit of right seat time every now and then

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[donkaye]

4 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Come on over to Phoenix tomorrow Don, do a few hrs pattern work without AC
I'll be here doing just that, but am fortunate to be in an Air conditioned Acclaim S.


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Some AC is better than none, but I haven't found it to be as effective as it should be.  Except for training, the Turbocharged Mooneys can get to cool air in about 10 minutes in the hot country.

[donkaye]

20 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

 

That could very well be true, but that's not the way *I fly the airplanes*.  The TSIO-540 in the Bravo will live a long and happy life, probably without a top overhaul, running at 75% power. My Bravo went to 2,200 hours before it was overhauled but it took 19.4 GPH in cruise to keep the engine numbers happy. Run a TSIO-360 as in a 231 at 75% power and you'll be doing at least one and probably two top overhauls before TBO. I'll fly a TSIO-540 at 75% power but I won't fly a TSIO-360 over 65% power. I fly my 231 at 9.0 (+/- 0.2) GPH in cruise. That's an 11.4 GPH difference in fuel flow *the way I fly the airplanes* that I've actually owned and maintained.

Feel free to run your Bravo, your 231 or any other airplane where you feel appropriate.

A 75% power my CHTs are around 360° max without opening the cowl flaps.  I have the MVP-50 on highest CHT and EGT so I monitor it closely and often.

[Danb]

My CHT's run more like 380, I'm going to do more work on the baffles in an attempt to cool it a little. Would GAMI,s make any difference?

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

My CHT's run more like 380, I'm going to do more work on the baffles in an attempt to cool it a little. Would GAMI,s make any difference?

It's very unlikely that GAMI's would make any difference in your temps. But you should do GAMI lean test to see how well your injectors are balanced now, and that will tell you if you'd benefit from GAMI's. You can even send the results to GAMI and they'll tell you. They won't sell you injectors if you don't need them. And often we don't need them.

[smccray]

23 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

The fuel burn difference between my previous Bravo and my current 231 is more like 11+ GPH. That's $8,000/yr just in fuel differences flying 150 hours a year.

What's the speed difference on the bravo vs the 231? I'm sure it doesn't cover the difference between the bravo and the 231, but the real metric is cost per mile not cost per hour.  Regardless, the difference is greater than I have seen quoted elsewhere.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, smccray said:

What's the speed difference on the bravo vs the 231? I'm sure it doesn't cover the difference between the bravo and the 231, but the real metric is cost per mile not cost per hour.  Regardless, the difference is greater than I have seen quoted elsewhere.

+/- 25 kts.

[Steve Dietrich]

I'm a great fan of the 252 (or 252 conversion of the 231) for flying high, fast and efficiently with a modest load. 

Look carefully at the EOW  - 

Great adds - long range tanks ,   speedbrakes if you fly descents in turbulent weather  - routine use is like burning hundred dollar bills

speed,  fuel efficiency , engine life   - pick any two 

single alternator  -   alternator, coupling   battery need tlc and some thought.

 

 

 

[Flying Crab]

Hey JP12, I have arguably the nicest stock, except paint,  (repainted at the same vendor who paints new ones out of Kerrville) interior, and avionics, 231 in the country. 1200 hours on the engine. Great compressions, oil changes every 25 hrs. Never touched except, vacuum pump, and alternator. Dugosh has done three annuals on it. I am looking at moving on to a Baron or TTX and would consider offers. If interested I'll have it back in the Houston area in October. It spends the summers inside in a dry Colorado hangar. Summers flying in and out of 7600 almost requires turbo. Can  send pics. My advice though is buy a 252. Two alternators is a big deal. Otherwise bang for the buck a 231 is hard to beat. Let me know. If interested I'll send pics.