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180 HP RAJAY TURBO QUESTION


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A local mooney owner just traded for a 63C with rajay.  Anyone have one of these and can tell him how to lean it properly.  First time he flew it he went to 12,000 ft and leaned to peak then back 125 degrees.  When he landed there was a burned place on the side of the cowl and a crack.  I cant even imagine how hot the turbo had gotten. no exhaust leaks.  

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TIT isn't really an issue with RayJay, CDT is more limiting because there is no intercooler.  Something is wrong in your friends set up but there isn't enough information to determine what.  I see the #4 cylinder run a bit hotter with the turbo on but nothing else.  What power settings was he running, was he leaning 125 ROP or LOP?

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Yeah, we need more info. The power charts are available in his STC booklet...@12,500ft, 65% power on mine is 24.7" and 2400 rpm, and at 65% power at ROP, 125 degrees is good. Either way, the turbo should not be getting that hot. Nor should it be so close to the cowl that it's touching. There could be lots of issues. Like poor oil circulation, a leak in the turbo, a leak in the exhaust off the turbo, a crack in the wastegate, a separation of the wastegate from the turbo or exhaust pipes...

Have him take some photos. 

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all the exhaust system is good.  wastegate was fully checked.  He thinks he just does not know what setting's to use. If anyone has the charts on a 180 ho C possibly you have a copy of the power charts you could copy for me.  His is an old installation just as my E model and neither of us have the power settings as they were not included back then  I put mine on in 1975 and have everything the Rajay people in California included.  He said he leaned to peak and enriched 125 degrees.  He is a strictly numbers driver.

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45 minutes ago, acpartswhse said:

all the exhaust system is good.  wastegate was fully checked.  He thinks he just does not know what setting's to use. If anyone has the charts on a 180 ho C possibly you have a copy of the power charts you could copy for me.  His is an old installation just as my E model and neither of us have the power settings as they were not included back then  I put mine on in 1975 and have everything the Rajay people in California included.  He said he leaned to peak and enriched 125 degrees.  He is a strictly numbers driver.

I have only flown the factory turbos so I can't help, but if you figure it out I'd be really curious to hear what it was.

I really only know how to run them based off TIT, with no TIT I'm clueless. 125ROP sounds fine, I go 150 but that's just me.

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  Going to peak while at a high power setting is what will roast the turbo and anything in the vicinity.  Leaning with this type of turbo should not be done at high power levels 70% and above unless you are able to monitor the TIT while doing it, even at lower power settings without good air flow you are risking overtemps without the ability to monitor.

 

My .02

Ron

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4 minutes ago, Marcopolo said:

  Going to peak while at a high power setting is what will roast the turbo and anything in the vicinity.  Leaning with this type of turbo should not be done at high power levels 70% and above unless you are able to monitor the TIT while doing it, even at lower power settings without good air flow you are risking overtemps without the ability to monitor.

 

My .02

Ron

Again, I'm unfamiliar... But peak TIT is allowed on my setup for 1 or 2 minutes. I never linger there but it's OK to check for peak and I'm supposed to every flight in order to test the accuracy of the TIT probe.

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6 minutes ago, peevee said:

Again, I'm unfamiliar... But peak TIT is allowed on my setup for 1 or 2 minutes. I never linger there but it's OK to check for peak and I'm supposed to every flight in order to test the accuracy of the TIT p

Peak TIT is okay for a short while as long as its not over absolute peak temperature (1650 or 1750 I think depending on the installation).  If you were to lean at max power you'd hit this absolute peak temperature a good bit before peak mixture.

 

R

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12 minutes ago, Marcopolo said:

Peak TIT is okay for a short while as long as its not over absolute peak temperature (1650 or 1750 I think depending on the installation).  If you were to lean at max power you'd hit this absolute peak temperature a good bit before peak mixture.

 

R

You're supposed to do it at cruise climb-ish settings. One minute is allowed at peak EGT None of this has anything to do with the subject at hand however.

 

peak1.jpg

peak2.jpg

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Peevee,

 

  That write-up contradicts itself, it states that peak TIT should be between 1690-1710 and then in the next paragraph it states 1600 continuous is too high and 1650 is the absolute maximum (not for a minute, not for a second).

 I'll bow out as I'm not familiar enough with these installations.  I do know that in my K (231-RayJay turbo) at manifold pressures above 33" I can get to the absolute maximum TIT temperature pretty easily if I'm not careful.  I'm assuming, maybe incorrectly, that that is what may be happening to the OP's friend's machine.

Ron 

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The 1690-1700 is peak for that power setting which equates to 78% power and is only allowed for 1 min to verify gauge accuracy as leaning above 75% for any other reason is prohibited. For 75% power or less the attached chart offers a little better explanation. At 55% power peak TIT leaned 25-50 ROP should be less than the continuous TIT of 1600 but if not it needs to be richened further as well as the variations gathered from the gauge accuracy check above also need to be figured in. The manual explains it a little weird and confusing. Not to get too far off topic though...

Like others have said, sounds like his power setting may have been too high, 125 degrees ROP may not be enough based on power setting and could have been well above the maximum TIT.

Jeremy

Capture.PNG

Edited by Jeremy95
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  • 7 months later...
41 minutes ago, Drmooney said:

Did you ever find out what the problem was?  The exact same thing happened to my 64D the first time I used the turbo, and I have not yet figured out the problem IMG_2246.JPG

Please provide more information. Looks like you have egt’s on all cylinders, what were the readings?  What was your MP and RPM at takeoff, 6, 9, and 12k?  What was your climb speed?

Also welcome to MS!

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@Drmooney

First, welcome aboard....

quickly,

From the picture...

Looks like you have a serious plumbing problem in your exhaust system...

Is that paint burnt?

If yes, that is a do not fly sign.

I could be completely wrong.  But, prefer to err on the side of caution.

Leaking exhaust pipes have a tendency to cut like a torch and light things on fire...

Have a mechanic come to the plane....

Looks like there is a lot of heat damage that has been going on for a while... cracks in the sheet metal and drilled to stop the crack propagation.  Somebody has been aware of this before.

Kind of looks like the 2 into 1 Y pipe is in the same location behind the crusty paint. Is there any evidence of exhaust deposits there?

Do you have a CO monitor?  I would expect you might be seeing some CO levels in the cockpit to go with that...

Hope that helps...

Private pilot observations only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

There are not many O360s with turbos around here to compare notes with.  Do you have a copy of the STC and/or  operations guide to help with your challenge?

We have a few people with an IO360 and a turbo that may be able to lend their experience regarding similar cowling and heat challenges....

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Assuming there isn't an exhaust leak, I didn't see any signs of one, does the cowling have any heat shielding? Turbo installations use some form of heat shielding to protect it. You can get some pretty good stick on heat shielding that would be very effective.

The EGT3 probe sure looks like a TIT probe. But I am guessing you don't have a TIT probe.

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34 minutes ago, MIm20c said:

Please provide more information. Looks like you have egt’s on all cylinders, what were the readings?  What was your MP and RPM at takeoff, 6, 9, and 12k?  What was your climb speed?

Also welcome to MS!

Peak EGT temp was 1550. I kept it at or below 1480 while using the turbo. MP was kept between 23 and 25, and RPM 2400 throughout the climb to 14000

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30 minutes ago, carusoam said:

@Drmooney

First, welcome aboard....

quickly,

From the picture...

Looks like you have a serious plumbing problem in your exhaust system...

Is that paint burnt?

If yes, that is a do not fly sign.

I could be completely wrong.  But, prefer to err on the side of caution.

Leaking exhaust pipes have a tendency to cut like a torch and light things on fire...

Have a mechanic come to the plane....

Looks like there is a lot of heat damage that has been going on for a while... cracks in the sheet metal and drilled to stop the crack propagation.  Somebody has been aware of this before.

Kind of looks like the 2 into 1 Y pipe is in the same location behind the crusty paint. Is there any evidence of exhaust deposits there?

Do you have a CO monitor?  I would expect you might be seeing some CO levels in the cockpit to go with that...

Hope that helps...

Private pilot observations only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

When I bought the plane (with the turbo already installed) there was absolutely no heat damage. When I used the turbo the first time, the cowling cracked and paint burned. My mechanic then stop drilled it and sprayed the white paint on it before flying it again to see if the same thing happened with the turbo off - it didn't. 

As far as I can tell there's no sign of an exhaust leak, and I do have a CO detector showing clean air 

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27 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Assuming there isn't an exhaust leak, I didn't see any signs of one, does the cowling have any heat shielding? Turbo installations use some form of heat shielding to protect it. You can get some pretty good stick on heat shielding that would be very effective.

The EGT3 probe sure looks like a TIT probe. But I am guessing you don't have a TIT probe.

I can't see an exhaust leak either. And I've thought about putting some heat shield on the cowling, but there is almost no room between it and the turbo; about 0.75 in I believe. I'm afraid that an additional constriction would leave even less air to flow past the turbo. I may install an additional air vent in the front to direct more air between the cowling and turbo. 

As far as TIT goes, I  had a TIT gauge installed last week and will hopefully test it tomorrow. Any suggestions on what temps are normal and what's too are greatly appreciated, since this is my first turbo airplane

 

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28 minutes ago, Drmooney said:

Peak EGT temp was 1550. I kept it at or below 1480 while using the turbo. MP was kept between 23 and 25, and RPM 2400 throughout the climb to 14000

Those look like conservative numbers. Did you open the throttle fully before engaging the turbo?  You also might want to install a intake air temp gauge as the maximum is 238 degrees to protect the carb although mine has not gotten close to that. 

Has your mechanic checked the compressor for normal bearing tightness and oil flow?  Any evidence of heat damage right around the turbo?

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One of the things that seams to be missing...

On a certified / factory built plane, all the approved add-ons come with instructions to be followed.  How to install it.  How to operate it.  Weight and balance details, where exactly to install the TIT gauge, those kind of things...

The installation process has been approved by the FAA.  If it needs heat shields, or insulation, or air flow, these are generally outlined with how to comply.  The (broken) louvres are an addition, were not standard on my old M20C...

The operations aspect will probably have MP and TIT limitations for various regimes of flight.  

With the older planes some of the documentation is at best, not existing...

 

Many NA M20C pilots will climb at air speeds of 120mias... for improved CHTs.  Pretty far above the usual Vx and Vy.

With decent instrumentation, do you have a feeling for how Rich of Peak you were operating the engine?  Normally aspirated engines often use full Rich or a range of 200 - 300°F ROP

Do you have fuel flow info to go with that?

Do you know if your secondary fuel nozzle is operating at full throttle?  This is the secondary fuel circuit that is used to supply additional cooling during wide open throttle operations... are you intentionally pulling the throttle back to cut this extra circuit?

I’m looking for the reasons that your exhaust pipes are glowing red (assumption based on the heat damage in one flight)...

What were your CHTs during the climb to 14,000’.

The standard M20C cowling is not very good at air cooling.  There are a few cowling mods that have been available through the years.

Questions in brief....

  • Got any install and ops docs?
  • What climb air speed were you using?
  • What fuel flow were you seeing?
  • How did you set the fuel mixture?
  • Are you familiar with the secondary fuel nozzle?
  • Did you get any transition training specific to this airplane?  Do you want to get some?
  • Do you know how hot this had to get to char the paint and crack the sheet aluminum?

Again, to be clear, I am only a Private pilot, and these are the questions that come to mind...

I was new to Mooney ownership two or three times... i’m Still new to mooney ownership...

Best regards,

-a-

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3 hours ago, Drmooney said:

I can't see an exhaust leak either. And I've thought about putting some heat shield on the cowling, but there is almost no room between it and the turbo; about 0.75 in I believe. I'm afraid that an additional constriction would leave even less air to flow past the turbo. I may install an additional air vent in the front to direct more air between the cowling and turbo. 

As far as TIT goes, I  had a TIT gauge installed last week and will hopefully test it tomorrow. Any suggestions on what temps are normal and what's too are greatly appreciated, since this is my first turbo airplane

 

The heat shield material is very thin, perhaps 1/4". I can't recall the product, but I believe I recall @jetdriven Byron posted it here within the last couple years. It has an adhesive back to make it easy to install. All our turbo cowls have builtin heat shield protection. Keep in mind that the turbo when operating at above 1450F is glowing a cherry red - its radiating a lot of heat. Your hose and turbo look new, could it be the case you are the first to operate it?

Redline max TIT on the Rayjay's is 1650F, yet I'd keep it from exceeding 1600F for maximum exhaust component longevity. But 1500-1540F TIT is usually typical for ROP ops, but running LOP will have you pushing 1600F with power above 70% and higher as % power increases.  

Edited by kortopates
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LOP will add an extra layer of complexity with the O360. Consistent Fuel distribution is very challenging without Four separate fuel injectors feeding the cylinders... 

Another question to throw on... what made you choose 2400 rpm to go with 25” of MP?  Do you have the usual(?) 2700rpm red line?

Best regards,

-a-

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14 hours ago, carusoam said:

LOP will add an extra layer of complexity with the O360. Consistent Fuel distribution is very challenging without Four separate fuel injectors feeding the cylinders... 

Another question to throw on... what made you choose 2400 rpm to go with 25” of MP?  Do you have the usual(?) 2700rpm red line?

Best regards,

-a-

I assume his is similar to mine. 073D8EC1-EADC-4280-95E7-B86431DF2B57.thumb.jpeg.dbede22a333410543b66c6f56e054842.jpeg

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16 hours ago, kortopates said:

The heat shield material is very thin, perhaps 1/4". I can't recall the product, but I believe I recall @jetdriven Byron posted it here within the last couple years. It has an adhesive back to make it easy to install. All our turbo cowls have builtin heat shield protection. 

Thermo-Tec 13575 12" X 24" Adhesive Backed Heat Barrier https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00029KC2K?ref=yo_pop_ma_swf

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