Flaps on touch and go

[ArtVandelay]

what if your flaps don't come up or get split on the way up....just WTF do you do when you rotate and realize you do not have an even takeoff flap setting? or you misread your trim setting......figuring all this out at 100 feet is not where I want to be.

Go ahead and keep doing touch and go's in Mooney's.  As we keep losing planes mine will only go up in value.....supply and demand......

I did a lot of T&Gs during transition training. Even when out of trim it was a non event, you are going slow enough that you can maintain control with 1 arm, trim with your thumb and control throttle if needed (back off a bit until trimmed). With out electric: trim, flaps and gear...it's probably more of an athletic exercise. This was on a 5500' runway, 150hr pilot, it's a skill I needed when I bounced a few landings afterwards.

[PTK]

I haven't done touch and goes since my private days in the Cherokee 180. As a matter of preference I will not do them in my Mooney. I find it more valuable to practice full landings and takeoffs or aborted landings. I regularly attend the MAPA proficiency seminars and they don't recommend them either.

I had an examiner once request that I show him a touch and go in the Mooney. I politely refused and explained my reasoning to him. I also told him that I'd gladly demonstrate full landings taxi and full take offs. He concurred with my reasoning and thanked me for the explanation!
 

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

Good advice.  I've a 12K footer near home base, so not a bad idea.  

With 12k you will have plenty of runway to work with and I'm guessing at that length it is nice and wide so the odds of you drifting too close to the edge are very slim. Just take your time, you will have plenty of it. Make sure you are tracking right down the center-line before adjusting trim if you choose to do that before advancing the throttle. Although as some others said even if you have full up trim you shouldn't have a problem holding enough pressure forward to keep from pitching up and stalling at the slower speed that you will be taking off at compared to a go around. 

35 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

Question:  Do you have more to lose or to gain from doing a touch and go in a complex airplane single pilot or even multi crew?

I am not saying I have not done them?  I have in Cessna 150's to the 747-400.  But what do you gain?  I would say the big planes may be safer because you have the pilot not flying  resetting your trim and flaps.....but and this is a big one for even the small planes.....what if your flaps don't come up or get split on the way up....just WTF do you do when you rotate and realize you do not have an even takeoff flap setting? or you misread your trim setting......figuring all this out at 100 feet is not where I want to be.

Go ahead and keep doing touch and go's in Mooney's.  As we keep losing planes mine will only go up in value.....supply and demand......

What if your flaps don't come up when you are performing a regular take off? What if your flaps get split on the way up when you are performing a regular take off? Is there a greater chance of that happening on a touch-n-go than if you land, taxi back, and take off again?

The couple of times I have had to go around I have found that it is more complicated and involved than a touch-n-go but I don't hear the same arguments against practicing those. On a go around I'm going faster so the addition of power with full up trim is much more noticeable than when I am rolling along at 50-60mph and add power on a touch-n-go. On a go around I am stopping my descent and beginning a climb without the benefit of having performed a landing first, all while still retracting flaps, adjusting trim, and retracting gear. Figuring all of that out is exactly what has to happen between 5-100' off the ground when performing a go around, but again I don't hear people making the same arguments against practicing go arounds as they do against practicing touch-n-go's.

For having the name "Complex" I have found that my plane really isn't that complex.

[Hank]

6 minutes ago, PTK said:

How so?

The extra speed and addition of power on the go around, in contrast to a TGL, helps you by making the energy management easier. Simply clean up and climb.

The higher airspeed makes the out-of-trim pitch up force much stronger than on initial climbout at slower speed. Why? Because lift is proportional to speed.

[PTK]

How so?

The extra speed and addition of power on the go around, in contrast to a TGL, helps you by making the energy management easier. Simply clean up and climb.

[PTK]

46 minutes ago, Hank said:

The higher airspeed makes the out-of-trim pitch up force much stronger than on initial climbout at slower speed. Why? Because lift is proportional to speed.

If out of trim is the concern, and it is a big one, you are much more out of trim in a TGL than in a go around.

[Jim Peace]

3 hours ago, Skates97 said:

What if your flaps don't come up when you are performing a regular take off? What if your flaps get split on the way up when you are performing a regular take off? Is there a greater chance of that happening on a touch-n-go than if you land, taxi back, and take off again?

If your flaps split or don't go up on a regular takeoff it should not that bad at our speeds.  They were at a reduced setting to begin with.  But if you do a TNG with full flaps and then put the flaps up and only one comes up then what?  Is part of your TNG before takeoff checklist while you are hauling ass down the runway to look at each flap like you do on a normal taxi out?  

Put yourself in the insurers seat.  Would you want to insure pilots who do full stop landings and complete checklists and do proper departure briefings before every takeoff or do you want to bet your company's finances on a bunch of yahoos who while single pilot are changing configuration seconds after landing pulling levers and adjusting trim etc etc...just to get that one extra landing in before the sun sets or showing off to their friends or to rush the plane back before the next renter gets upset.......

Also what if you land full flaps on a nice warm day and you may have overlooked some performance issues and now you put flaps up and they don't come up. Are you going to notice this?  The long runway you had just became much shorter and the trees taller.......

 

 

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Jim Peace

[StinkBug]

I rarely do touch and goes, but since I almost never use flaps for takeoff it's a pretty simple affair. Treat it like any other landing, and use all the same setting I normally would. After landing retract flaps, apply power and perform a normal take off. The key is not to rush it. I only do them at my home airport with 5000' of runway, so I can land get totally stable and take my time reconfiguring. 

[Guest]

How would only one flap retract?  They are both connected to the same torque tube which is operated by either and electric actuator or a hydraulic cylinder.

Clarence

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

How would only one flap retract?  They are both connected to the same torque tube which is operated by either and electric actuator or a hydraulic cylinder.

Clarence

Because that's the standard CFI question while training in a Cessna, where split flaps apparently happen sometimes. Maybe they have separate motors for each Fowler flap?

Besides, I think he's grasping at straws to justify his own preference to not do TnGs. Like the insurance question he asked. Yes, every insurance company would like to insure pilots who always do everything properly and in accordance with their checklists, but both of those pilots are already insured.

The good news:  you are PIC of your plane, and I am PIC of my plane.. Weather and winds withstanding, you don't have to do anything you don't want to. But just because you don't want to doesn't mean that I shouldn't, and just because I want to doesn't mean that you should.

Touch n Goes remains a valid exercise, and a good maneuver. Do it or not, it's your choice. 

[Jim Peace]

25 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

How would only one flap retract?  They are both connected to the same torque tube which is operated by either and electric actuator or a hydraulic cylinder.

Clarence

After seeing service bulletins done on these vintage models having a torque tube or a weld break is totally within the realm of possibility.  It is just a machine full of SPOFs....the flap return springs are how old in some of these planes?

I hope everyone else does TNG landings.....I want the value of my plane to go up.........

 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Jim Peace

[N201MKTurbo]

The return springs are just there to bring them up on the ground. The air pushes them up while flying.

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, Jim Peace said:

 

I hope everyone else does TNG landings.....I want the value of my plane to go up.........

Wow.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sure sounds like you're hoping your fellow MooneySpace members crash their airplanes.

[N201MKTurbo]

So, does anybody know how many Mooneys have crashed doing touch and Gos? The accident reports must be littered with them.

[gsxrpilot]

I've done touch and goes with an M20C and a M20K252 in all possible configurations including full flaps with full up trim and speed brakes deployed. It's a non-event. It helps to be comfortable flying the airplane in all different configurations, not just what's detailed in the POH, though.

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

Because that's the standard CFI question while training in a Cessna, where split flaps apparently happen sometimes. Maybe they have separate motors for each Fowler flap?

Besides, I think he's grasping at straws to justify his own preference to not do TnGs. Like the insurance question he asked. Yes, every insurance company would like to insure pilots who always do everything properly and in accordance with their checklists, but both of those pilots are already insured.

The good news:  you are PIC of your plane, and I am PIC of my plane.. Weather and winds withstanding, you don't have to do anything you don't want to. But just because you don't want to doesn't mean that I shouldn't, and just because I want to doesn't mean that you should.

Touch n Goes remains a valid exercise, and a good maneuver. Do it or not, it's your choice. 

Cessna flaps do have separate motors, and I had that very thing happen on preflight in a 150 early in my training.

[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

Wow.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sure sounds like you're hoping your fellow MooneySpace members crash their airplanes.

No not at all....besides doing TNG seems to be a safer way to go....

[Jim Peace]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

I've done touch and goes with an M20C and a M20K252 in all possible configurations including full flaps with full up trim and speed brakes deployed. It's a non-event. It helps to be comfortable flying the airplane in all different configurations, not just what's detailed in the POH, though.

Are you sure you want this in writing on the internet forever?  

[jetdriven]

18 minutes ago, Jim Peace said:

No not at all....besides doing TNG seems to be a safer way to go....

It's not that it's more dangerous. The main risk is moving switches and things during a critical phase of flight and either getting distracted from flying the airplane or by grabbing the gear lever and putting the airplane on its belly.  There are a few threads where just that happened, by experienced pilots all and ones who thought it wouldn't happen to them l.

there is no risk of either if you wait to mess with things until a safe taxi speed or clearing the runway. They used to bust pilots on their 135 and 121 check rides for touching any switch (besides  the PTT) before clearing the hold short line after landing. now it's written into the ops manual. There must  have been something behind that. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by jetdriven

[PTK]

Question to the proponents of TGL as it pertains to the Mooney or to any airplane for that matter:

I'm having trouble understanding what it is exactly you are trying to accomplish by doing a tgl? Are you trying to perfect your landings or your go arounds? Reason I ask is because it seems to me you are doing neither!

The landing, be it full or aborted, is a normal procedure. The tgl is not. 

If your goal is to perfect the landing then do landings to a full stop clear of the rw. If it's to perfect go arounds then practice aborted landings from various phases of the approach.  On the approach or on short final or just before touch down, or after touch down or on the roll out. Your intent was to land but have to abort for some unexpected reason. What exactly is your intent in a tgl?

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Cessna flaps do have separate motors, and I had that very thing happen on preflight in a 150 early in my training.

In more than 30 years of aircraft maintenance I've never seen a Cessna with more than one flap motor.  The motor is in the right wing, it turns a large pulley/bellcrank, a set of cables run through the upper cabin above the head liner out to a pulley/bellcrank in the left wing,. These rotate in unison to extend or retract the flaps.

Clarence

[Skates97]

3 hours ago, PTK said:

Question to the proponents of TGL as it pertains to the Mooney or to any airplane for that matter:

What exactly are you trying to accomplish by doing a tgl? Are you trying to perfect your landings or your go arounds? Reason I ask is because it seems to me you are doing neither!

I'm confused, a touch-n-go is not a normal landing? When I am performing one I am landing the plane the same as if I was intending to stop. I am configured for a normal landing and execute it that way. The only difference is that instead of rolling along and applying brakes to exit the runway onto a taxiway, I am rolling along and then applying power which allows me to exit the runway back into the air. I could do it either way, and have on more than one occasion intended to perform a touch-n-go while on final but decided after touching down to make it a full stop taxi back instead. 

When I am practicing touch-n-gos it is to work on landing technique. If I am practicing go arounds I practice them instead, they are a different animal. 

[ArtVandelay]

The landing, be it full or aborted, is a normal procedure. The tgl is not. 
If your goal is to perfect the landing then do landings to a full stop clear of the rw. If it's to perfect go arounds then practice aborted landings from various phases of the approach.  On the approach or on short final or just before touch down, or after touch down or on the roll out. Your intent is to land but have to abort for some reason. What is your intent in a tgl?

I would say the goal is to maintain control of the aircraft at all phases while reconfiguring as required. TGLs are a required skill to get your PPL, and if you feel it's too dangerous I would go out with a CFI and practice.
Does MAPA instruction do TGLs?

[Yetti]

Touch and goes are good practice for when you bounce a landing.  Shove everything foreward. Trim. Level flight, flaps,side step, radio, clean up, climb

Good to have muscle memory

[201er]

9 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

I would say the goal is to maintain control of the aircraft at all phases while reconfiguring as required. TGLs are a required skill to get your PPL

 No! I could not find a single mention of touch n goes in the PPL ACS. 

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/acs/media/private_airplane_acs_6A.pdf

9 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Does MAPA instruction do TGLs?

No!

9 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

and if you feel it's too dangerous I would go out with a CFI and practice.

No! What would be the point of going out and practicing a useless maneuver with an instructor that you intentionally choose to avoid in order to reduce risk? I don't think anyone is saying they don't know how to do touch n goes or are incapable of doing them. They are just saying that they have identified an elevated risk in performing such a maneuver and realizing the lack of positive value from its implementation, they found it prudent to avoid practicing it.