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Flaps on touch and go


TheTurtle

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I dont really really like touch and goes.  never did.  plane is squirrly feeling in that phase of flight.  I cant really remember more than 1 or 2 since Ive owned the mooney. 

Since on landing I could have anywhere from none to full flaps. and on vintage mooneys theres no detents to set flaps to a certain place I have to raise the flaps and then put in 2 pumps of flaps to get POH takeoff setting. 

what do you guys do on touch and goes?  missed approach/go arounds are slightly different in my mind.  theres not quite as much going on before the wheels hit the ground.

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4 minutes ago, TheTurtle said:

Iwhat do you guys do on touch and goes?  missed approach/go arounds are slightly different in my mind.  theres not quite as much going on before the wheels hit the ground.

I don't. I own the plane, it barely costs me anything to taxi back, I enjoy my time spent flying, I don't like the risks involved with touch and goes so I see no purpose. Hypothetically, if I were to do it, I would land full flaps, retract on the ground, and take off no flaps. The runway would have to be ridiculously long.

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Just now, 201er said:

I don't. I own the plane, it barely costs me anything to taxi back, I enjoy my time spent flying, I don't like the risks involved with touch and goes so I see no purpose. Hypothetically, if I were to do it, I would land full flaps, retract on the ground, and take off no flaps. The runway would have to be ridiculously long.

thats what Ive done the couple times we did them.  2000 feet is enough room for me to land and take off no flaps.

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Like Lance says, just don't do them. Instead practice real landings of all kinds and real takeoffs of all kinds and taxi back. After initial training one generally doesn't need to do concentrated landing practice where you are not practicing good habits anyway.
There has been way too many touch and go accidents. We won't do them at MAPA PPP training events nor will the Bonanza guys at their BPPs either.


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I have had a GU while doing touch and goes under instruction.  I still do them while under instruction.  I have an audible gear alert system installed.  Land full flaps.  Retract flaps.  Power in.  Ready to rotate with power applied.  No flaps on take-off with touch and goes.  Except for flight review I don't do them as I do enough flying that I don't need to practice landings.

I would NOT recommend them without an audible gear alarm installed.  With it?  Meh, no big deal.

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7 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

I have had a GU while doing touch and goes under instruction.  I still do them while under instruction.  I have an audible gear alert system installed.  Land full flaps.  Retract flaps.  Power in.  Ready to rotate with power applied.  No flaps on take-off with touch and goes.  Except for flight review I don't do them as I do enough flying that I don't need to practice landings.

I would NOT recommend them without an audible gear alarm installed.  With it?  Meh, no big deal.

Yeah, NBd.  Another gadget will replace airmanship. Heck even the piper Arrow series had automatic gear extension and they manage to gear them up and crash them. 

Edited by jetdriven
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16 minutes ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Why would a touch and go be any more likely to result in a prop strike?

A couple reasons.

First, Distraction. In a long body if you bounce it in you better be on top of it and not distracted by fiddling with flaps or salvaging a landing, etc. You need to add some power immediately and go around. If it bounces hard twice there's a decent chance of a prop strike but if it goes three times it's almost assured. That's the most common accident on a long body is a porpoising following by a prop strike. I've never had one but based on what I've heard and read.

Second, a gear up is always a prop strike . . lol. The prop strike is the more expensive of the two with a new prop and the engine teardown, etc.

Also I noticed that on touch and goes the addition of power was not as smooth, kinda forced,  and in a turbo that's not such a good thing.

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Just now, LANCECASPER said:

A couple reasons.

First, Distraction. In a long body if you bounce it in you better be on top of it and not distracted by fiddling with flaps or salvaging a landing, etc. You need to add some power immediately and go around. If it bounces hard twice there's a decent chance of a prop strike but if it goes three times it's almost assured. That's the most common accident on a long body is a porpoising following by a prop strike. I've never had one but based on what I've heard and read. The

Second, a gear up is always a prop strike . . lol. The prop strike is the more expensive of the two with a new prop and the engine teardown, etc.

Got it.  Although I likely WOULD be doing a touch and go literally if I porpoise as I would be going around without coming to a complete stop...Just say'n.

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Just now, MyNameIsNobody said:

Got it.  Although I likely WOULD be doing a touch and go literally if I porpoise as I would be going around without coming to a complete stop...Just say'n.

No, that's considered a bounce-and-get-the-heck-outta-there landing . . lol

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If your screwing up a landing so bad that you are bouncing multiple times and risking a prop strike, that is the time you want to do a touch and go...  full throttle, flaps, gear, flaps, flaps...

I'm flying a J with an electric flap switch so maybe it's easier?  I just raise one notch, check trim, and go full throttle for a T&G.  Hit the cowl flap switch to open and it's no different than any other takeoff.

i don't see any difference between a T&G or taxiing back and then go assuming enough runway...

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I'm really confused now.  "Don't do touch and goes, they're too dangerous".  

Mean while on the west coast we have an esteemed Mooney instructor who deliberately teaches a bounced landing and recovery.

Clarence

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7 minutes ago, Rmag said:

If your screwing up a landing so bad that you are bouncing multiple times and risking a prop strike, that is the time you want to do a touch and go...  full throttle, flaps, gear, flaps, flaps...

I agree completely, but I'd rather practice stable approaches with a nice smooth landing, nice roll out and a complete stop since that's what I want to do at the end of each flight. Muscle memory, practice what you want to repeat. 

In a 172 touch and goes are great practice in preparation for your license. The airplane is very forgiving with great clearance and a sturdy landing gear and best of all it's someone else's airplane. My first post on this subject said that I didn't want to accept the additional risk. I don't know what the accident rate is on high performance retractables doing touch and goes but I've heard of too many accidents to want any part of it. Plus adding full power that fast that many times on a turbo is not a good practice to get into.  There's no one right answer though for everyone - do what you are comfortable with.

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1 minute ago, M20Doc said:

I'm really confused now.  "Don't do touch and goes, they're too dangerous".  

Mean while on the west coast we have an esteemed Mooney instructor who deliberately teaches a bounced landing and recovery.

Clarence

For transition to a long body that type of training is invaluable. If they don't do it with him and learn how to recover they'll do it the first time at home and have a prop strike.

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18 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I agree completely, but I'd rather practice stable approaches with a nice smooth landing, nice roll out and a complete stop.

So if there is a mile of runway left, what's the harm in taking off again instead of stopping?

I've been doing them in Mooneys for 33 years. I didn't know they were hard or dangerous until I joined Mooneyspace.

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TnGs...

Many people don't use them.  Several logical reasons given...

When using an M20C, I found it disappointing that the point of rotation was further down the runway than an ordinary T/O.

Since the turtle (OP) is uncomfortable using his 2000' runway for this...

I would be interested in knowing what makes him uncomfortable.  Is it the trees growing larger in the windshield prior to rotation?

What is the driving force for the TnG?

1) saving time?

2) saving fuel?

3) saving Hobbs time?

4) how does going to a longer runway effect the economics?

5) recognize the distraction that comes with multiple landings executed in a short time frame.  The TnG probably isn't much different in the distraction category than separate take offs and landings....

When the TnG seems to make sense, it usually comes with the desire to practice landings for improvements.  That kind of practice usually includes some off speed long landings with an equally displaced rotation...

when you have 30 years of Mooney flying experience, why are you executing TnGs? Because you can?

If you are new to Mooney flying, it is better to avoid the TnG. So much going on.  Plenty of unforced errors happen.

If you own a Mooney, the repeated temperature cycles on the engine are never appreciated.

 

PP thoughts that come to mind. Not a cfi...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

Edited by carusoam
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1 hour ago, carusoam said:

TnGs...

Many people don't use them.  Several logical reasons given...

When using an M20C, I found it disappointing that the point of rotation was further down the runway than an ordinary T/O.

Since the turtle (OP) is uncomfortable using his 2000' runway for this...

I would be interested in knowing what makes him uncomfortable.  Is it the trees growing larger in the windshield prior to rotation?

What is the driving force for the TnG?

1) saving time?

2) saving fuel?

3) saving Hobbs time?

4) how does going to a longer runway effect the economics?

5) recognize the distraction that comes with multiple landings executed in a short time frame.  The TnG probably isn't much different in the distraction category than separate take offs and landings....

When the TnG seems to make sense, it usually comes with the desire to practice landings for improvements.  That kind of practice usually includes some off speed long landings with an equally displaced rotation...

when you have 30 years of Mooney flying experience, why are you executing TnGs? Because you can?

If you are new to Mooney flying, it is better to avoid the TnG. So much going on.  Plenty of unforced errors happen.

If you own a Mooney, the repeated temperature cycles on the engine are never appreciated.

 

PP thoughts that come to mind. Not a cfi...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

I dont like t&g because the couple seconds before takeoff and the couple seconds after landing are the times the plane feels least in my control.  THe times Ive done them I've taken back off no flaps.  My question wasn't should I or shouldnt I but more the POH says takeoff with 2 pumps.  That retracting of flaps then putting in 2 pumps just feels like to much going on for me and wondered if people actually did that or just did a no flap takeoff.  I know some guys here do no flap takeoffs as their SOP.

I have no fear of trees or running out of runway, the mooney seems to climb pretty well down here at sea level.  

My second though was if people are doing no flap takeoffs regularly and IF people are doing no flap takeoff T&Gs why do we even use flaps to take off normally?  I have a min of 2400' of runway if Im on the small side of the airport.  5500 on the other.  I dont really need flaps.  But I do like getting off the ground as soon as possible because like I said before the few seconds before takeoff always feels sketchy to me.

And speaking of the POH.  Lots of guys including MAPA say knobs all forward until cruise altitude with just some leaning as you climb.  SO I blabbed that to my CFI since I generally go 25/25 at 1000agl and this time was going to climb out full forward.  He reached behind me and pulled out the POH and the climb procedure says 2500RPM (or something like that)  not balls to the wall.  

My wife is 5'4" and 120 in case anyone wanted to know ;)  I did not have sex with her last night... :( 

 

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or maybe you guys that do use flaps are doing a different T&G than me.  I suppose if I landed and slowed down to 50 or 40 knots or so and then fiddled with the flaps it wouldnt be so bad.  But I was taught where basically when the front wheel is down go full throttle and get out of there.  I also sucked at landings during training so I had to do lots of laps so maybe my CFI was just cutting down the time he had to sit with me ;)

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4 hours ago, TheTurtle said:

I dont really really like touch and goes.  never did.  plane is squirrly feeling in that phase of flight.  I cant really remember more than 1 or 2 since Ive owned the mooney. 

Since on landing I could have anywhere from none to full flaps. and on vintage mooneys theres no detents to set flaps to a certain place I have to raise the flaps and then put in 2 pumps of flaps to get POH takeoff setting. 

what do you guys do on touch and goes?  missed approach/go arounds are slightly different in my mind.  theres not quite as much going on before the wheels hit the ground.

Touch n goes are simple:

  • Make a normal landing
  • Raise flaps
  • Reset trim
  • Push everything forward
  • Rotate at normal speed
  • Climb out normally

You will rotate much further down the runway than for a normal takeoff, how far is determined by where on the asphalt you actually land. Runway is slipping away around 50 mph while I'm raising my flaps and resetting trim (taking off with landing trim is not something you want to to do!). This is why I never did TnGs at my first base (3000' with trees at both ends), and is why I don't do them at home now (3200'). Did many with my CFII, and one by request on my Instrument checkride. 

I prefer 5000' for TnG, just so I don't feel rushed. Longer is, of course, better, but I don't go much shorter. YMMV, etc.

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Flap setting, and trim setting, and keeping an eye on the co pilot sounds kind of busy... :)

I like the POH myself. In 1994, they were complete and pretty well written.

Whatever version you have is most likely not complete, and having a CFI pull it out and deliver it as fact, is his job...

When I was young.... (skip that)

 

we added additional margins to all the calculations as we went along.  The calculated details were so over fluffed they became unusable...  same thing happens with landing speeds.  Next thing you know, you are in ground effect and floating for ever...

 

know when to stay on the path... know when the path doesn't exist or is inaccurate.  Approach the path with a healthy dose of safety...

I found with so little time to get everything right, I was better off not doing TnGs...

It took a long time to realize how human I was, and getting used to that fact takes even longer... :)

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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1 minute ago, Hank said:

Touch n goes are simple:

  • Make a normal landing
  • Raise flaps
  • Reset trim
  • Push everything forward
  • Rotate at normal speed
  • Climb out normally

You forgot to open cowl flaps. And you're just thinking it through on the ground.

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