par Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) Well I finally received my shoulder and lap belt combo from hooker harness. The cost for this setup is significantly better than Alpha aviation. For those of you who do not need/want the inertial reel, this is the ONLY way to go. Total cost with shipping for both front seats is $417. They have multiple color choices available. These will require some way to clamp them to the steel tubing in our cockpits. I am just going to purchase the minor mod kit and that should be all that is needed. I plan to take pictures of the install and will post in this thread. For those who have not made this purchase due to the absurd pricing, we now have a good alternative. Edited June 6, 2017 by par 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrixxer Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) What piece(s) from Hooker did you go with? Is there an STC / PMA for Mooneys? Didn't see anything for our M20s on their website. Edited June 4, 2017 by chrixxer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRM Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 (edited) Do they have push-button or lever latches? OK, never mind, latch is in middle. Edited June 4, 2017 by HRM Clarity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctsurf Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 2 hours ago, chrixxer said: Is there an STC / PMA for Mooneys? Take a look at this post: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrixxer Posted June 4, 2017 Report Share Posted June 4, 2017 10 minutes ago, cctsurf said: Take a look at this post: That covers the shoulder harness itself, but to my reading not replacing the existing lap belt... The Alpha gear is, I believe, TSO and specifically mentions Mooney as a "minor change" eligible aircraft (http://www.alphaaviation.com/FAQbelts.html); Hooker has STC/PMA status but only for Cessnas/American a Champion (http://www.hookerharness.com/pdfs/aviationpricing.pdf) and doesn't mention Mooney anywhere on their site. I'd love to have shoulder harnesses for ~$500 instead of $700+, but legally (and I'm new to this particular maze). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par Posted June 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) To clarify a couple of things, I am going forward with this install based on the FAA guidance posted above. Nowhere in that guidance does it explicitly say that you can't replace the original lap belts as a part of the shoulder belt install. If this was the FAA's intent, they would have specified it as one of the requirements. We can lawyer this one to death but let's save that for another thread. Worse comes to worst, I will seek a field approval but I do not believe that is necessary here. Another thing I will check is to see if I can simply use the new shoulder belt with the original lap belts. The new belts are a lever style just like the old ones and the shoulder belt may simply work with the old stuff. I'll post back on this issue when I can confirm it. Edited June 5, 2017 by par Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrixxer Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 Well, I am a lawyer, so... The document states: "This policy statement addresses the approval of the shoulder harness installation only." (Page 3, last line.) Elsewhere it quotes commentators who distinguish between "shoulder and lap harnesses." Also, does the Hooker gear fall within these criteria? "[A]part from TSO-C114 harnesses, we will accept only those harnesses that meet the Society of Automotive Engineers Aerospace Standard 8043, harnesses produced under a Parts Manufacturer Approval (PMA) or harnesses that meet aircraft military specification requirements." (Page 6, top of page; see also page 15.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 I think the question is" Is there a TSO tag on the Hooker Belts?" If so then they would pass the test and a ramp check. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 Jack Hooker is an active member in the Cessna 120-140 club and a 120 owner. Through that organization attending national events I have gotten to know this nice man pretty well. I would suggest that if there are any doubts or questions about his harnesses and Mooney's simply give him a call. He will tell you the truth and you are virtually guaranteed to learn something from any conversation you have with Jack. There are MANY people who owe their lives to Hooker Harnesses. Jack has a "Test Pilot" patch that he gives to anyone whose life has been saved by a Hooker Harness. There are MANY people who have received this patch. I have a set of Hooker harnesses in my 140. The steel passenger compartment structure and the structural integrity of the Mooney appear to be far superior to most any Cessna product, but speaking ONLY about the shoulder harness system itself, I feel that the hooker harness in my Cessna is superior to the shoulder harness system in my Mooney. The Hooker harness firmly contains both shoulders, while my Mooney harness will hold one at best and it is so easy to slip out of the one shoulder belt in The Mooney, I wonder just how effective it would be in an accident. I pray that I will never be a "test pilot" for either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted June 5, 2017 Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 4 hours ago, chrixxer said: Well, I am a lawyer, so... The document states: "This policy statement addresses the approval of the shoulder harness installation only." (Page 3, last line.) Elsewhere it quotes commentators who distinguish between "shoulder and lap harnesses." Also, does the Hooker gear fall within these criteria? "[A]part from TSO-C114 harnesses, we will accept only those harnesses that meet the Society of Automotive Engineers Aerospace Standard 8043, harnesses produced under a Parts Manufacturer Approval (PMA) or harnesses that meet aircraft military specification requirements." (Page 6, top of page; see also page 15.) I don't know if this means anything, but I know that Jack Hooker has spent a lot of time, money and effort including many trips to Oklahoma City to secure and maintain the FAA's approval and blessing. Again, I would suggest calling Jack. He will shoot straight with you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par Posted June 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 Considering these same items are used in many certified A/C, the paperwork you are looking for should not be difficult to find. Like I said though, if all else fails, field approval is at your disposal or you can simply fly without these or spend some more to get a piece of paper to go along with the same items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par Posted June 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2017 (edited) Just spoke with Hooker Harness and confirmed there is a TSO and it is sewn directly on the seatbelt itself. I'll take some pictures of this later as well. Edited June 5, 2017 by par 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 I'd be interested to see the 2-shoulder install for a Mooney. I'm about to have to take out my ceiling panel soon anyway, may as well do this while it's out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 You can look for MS27405 series clamps made by Umpco. These fit around the steel tubes and have a hole for attaching the seat belt anchor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 I would really like to have Hooker Harnesses in my Mooney. If I didn't already have the single shoulder harnesses, I would very definitely be choosing the Hookers. At the 2015 Cessna 120-140 nationals in Tulahouma, TN, Jack flew there in his 120. There were many skydivers jumping in quantity during the time we were there. They even jumped through the clouds that we're keeping us on the ground, in the terminal, visiting. These were some serious, long time skydivers. One of the jumpers walked through the terminal having no Earthly idea that Jack Hooker was there. Jack asked the diver if he used any harnesses in the plane while climbing out for the jump. The jumper, again not knowing who he was said " yes we use a Hooker Harness system in the plane and tie off to it until we are ready to jump," and that some years ago that harness saved his life. Jack had a fish on the line and everyone there knew it except the jumper. Jack asked more questions. The jumper told about a loss of power shortly after take off that resulted in a serious crash, but all the jumpers survived but none were seriously hurt. Jack said something like I am very pleased that you are okay because I designed and built that harness system. The jumper and his friends that were survivors came to our banquet with their families. Jack presented all of them with a Test Pilot patch and each of them introduced their families and pointed out which children would have never been born were it not for the Hooker Skydiver harness system. At dinner one night I asked Jack what led him to making harnesses. It is a wonderful story. In college he was a skydiver. He met someone, married and once he had kids he decided jumping wasn't such a smart thing to do any more. At that point he had a parachute riggers certification that led to making different harnesses. He had someone come to him asking if he could make a race car harness which he did. That led to doing harnesses for an airplane and learning how to go through the certification process. This is similar to one of Al Mooneys areas of expertise which was getting planes certified. Anyway, if you ever have the opportunity to sit down with Jack, don't pass it up. He is a fascinating person to listen to. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apil Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 This is still on my todo list. Getting there slowly. Just finished replacing my control cables. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par Posted June 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, apil said: This is still on my todo list. Getting there slowly. Just finished replacing my control cables. I too waited perhaps a little too long but I'm glad we do not have to pay and arm and a leg for this crucial upgrade. At $450, I guess we can say it is only costing us a single arm. Once I get this installed and people are able to see the results, it would not be a bad idea for several of you to do a group buy and possibly reduce the cost some more. I did not pursue this myself but they seem like a company that would be willing to work with us. Edited June 6, 2017 by par 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par Posted June 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) Ok I had a chance to stop by at the hangar to take some pics and confirm a couple of things. Pictures of the TSO tag are attacked as well as a picture of the level mechanism. I had originally mentioned a price tag of $450 but the receipt shows it to be $417. So that's def music to our ears. Secondly, the new shoulder belt is not compatible with my old lap belt lift lever. To make the old one work, you would have to grind away some material from the lap belt connector. This is a bad idea for obvious reasons. Edited June 6, 2017 by par 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 I posted pictures of my older belts a while ago. A previous owner installed these belts. If I upgraded to new Hooker belts, can the current attachment points be used? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) I wish hooker made an inertia real set up. I much prefer the look and design of the Hooker harness to my alpha harnesses which look like they came out of an early 80s ford economy car. The five point harnesses in the Decathlon is made by Hooker. The company and its products are well respected in the aerobatics community. Edited June 6, 2017 by Shadrach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 Clicked on the thread. The title made me think it was about something else. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 Clicked on the thread. The title made me think it was about something else. Glad I'm not the only one who has a mind in the gutter. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted June 6, 2017 Report Share Posted June 6, 2017 3 hours ago, Shadrach said: I wish hooker made an inertia real set up. I much prefer the look and design of the Hooker harness to my alpha harnesses which look like they came out of an early 80s ford economy car. The five point harnesses in the Decathlon is made by Hooker. The company and its products are well respected in the aerobatics community. I am not a fan of inertia reels in aircraft. I feel very secure when tightly shouldered into my 140. I feel partially that way with the one shoulder secured in the Mooney. Not arguing, I am merely stating my own personal preference. Maybe I am biased because of my respect for Jack Hooker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, MBDiagMan said: I am not a fan of inertia reels in aircraft. I feel very secure when tightly shouldered into my 140. I feel partially that way with the one shoulder secured in the Mooney. Not arguing, I am merely stating my own personal preference. Maybe I am biased because of my respect for Jack Hooker. In a tandem seat aircraft with a narrow panel, I feel fine being cinched down. In a side by side cabin where I want to have full reach of both sides of the panel, I feel confined when cinched. I don't deny that there is a "feeling" of security when one is tightly cinched. However, my guess is that a statistical analysis would show no difference in safety between the two, so it really is just a feeling. Edited June 7, 2017 by Shadrach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadrach Posted June 7, 2017 Report Share Posted June 7, 2017 6 hours ago, Hyett6420 said: Surely the car stats show that there is no difference between the two, although racing cars have full cinch seatbelts. I agree, the stats for three point fixed vs inertia reel are likely the same. However, I would bet there is a difference between any three point and a fixed five point harness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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