Avionics Upgrade Opinions

[Bob_Belville]

17 minutes ago, INA201 said:

Nice panels!  Bob, did you replace the rocker switches with your current pitot, lights, etc. or was that standard style with your plane? If I'm recutting panels is there some merit to looking into the switches too? Anyone change out the annunciator with something more modern?  I hope to only do the panel foundation one time.  The compass while in a nice location doesn't function well at all so I'm going to need to remove it and probably put a vertical card.  

There's a pic of my old panel above - the one with the Narco HSI and a motley assortment of gauges, switches, lights, etc all the way across the top row - I already had the toggle switches along the bottom of the left panel, some or all may also be CBs, I don't recall...

[flyboy0681]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I chose to keep the xponder and the audio panel in my panel. The remote versions were more expensive and I thought made the 750 too busy. I can set squawk code and ident through the 750 but rarely do that - dialing in the code is about the one task Nancy has been willing to take on - and I routinely use the xponder timer function. Turning on and off the #2 Com sound (usually ATIS/AWOS) or the AOA alarm directly on the A/P is handy.

So... if you have the space, as I do, I would counsel saving money and leave those boxes in the panel. (The remote versions probably pull the w/b cg to the rear, not good for my plane.)  

I'm not a fan of the integrated transponder and audio panel either for the 750. Although it's proven to be very reliable, the 750 did completely freeze up on me a couple of years ago at which time I called up ATC from COM 2 and informed them that I needed to restart the navigator.  As a result, I don't like the idea of a single point of failure.

Lastly, I would lose a lot of  data fields which appear along the top two rows of the display to the audio and transponder functions, functions which rarely change during the duration of a flight. I already lost one data field when the GDL 88 was installed and am still pissed about that.

[Marauder]

I agree with Bob on the remote transponder and audio panel. I don't want to be digging around on the 750 to change a transponder code. This is especially true if you go with the 650. Prior to my most recent upgrade, I had the Garmin GTX-327 wired to the 650 and I also could set it through the GTN 650. I never, ever used the GTN to set it. I found it easier to reach over to the the GTX and change it or hit the IDENT button.

 

Panel with the 327 in it. Notice the GTN is showing the squawk code.

 

 

When I did the recent upgrade, the L-3 9000 does not interface with the GTN 650. That is fine for how I fly.

 

I would also consider functio over form when it comes to how you want your panel configured. As an example, I have added an ident button to the yoke buttons and I also have a transfer button to allow me to swap frequencies on the GTN. Anything to lighten the workload.

 

Another thing is to consider how much redundancy is important to you. I like knowing that I have some backup options.

 

Here is the new transponder in the center stack with the GTN 650.

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

 

[Marauder]

Better picture of it in transponder mode.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[PTK]

On 6/1/2017 at 1:34 PM, Browncbr1 said:

If you want a GTN650, then I would suggest keeping the 430w and sell the nav, com and CDI....   

I would hold off on everything until Osh to see if the G5 gets AP output, ..if that happens, also watch for Aspen price drop...  then decide which one and do it all together at once.  Less down time and maybe a lower overall cost.

I would suggest to go with an EDM830 rather than 730... you get a few more key features like FF, which can calculate additional data using GPS NEMA data.

I definitely agree on waiting to see what Oshkosh brings. Who knows maybe Aspen will roll out something new. Their boxes are old technology and overdue for a rejuvenation. Their survival depends on it. Hopefully they'll give Garmin some real competition.  Also we'll see if Avidyne offers anything for their fans. Maybe a pfd/mfd that will be fully compatible with their IFD since they're having some issues with the G500.

Also we'll see what BK will finally do with the KI300. I had heard a while ago that they had scrapped it. But last week my avionics shop told me they have info that it's not scrapped!

 

[INA201]

Sounds like the cool clean looking 750 panel isn't the most practical based on what I'm hearing.  It probably is easier to allow your copilot to help with transponder settings and audio without going through the GTN. The idea of redundancy is also nice.  The 900 will free up a ton of space too.  

[PTK]

11 hours ago, INA201 said:

Sounds like the cool clean looking 750 panel isn't the most practical based on what I'm hearing.  It probably is easier to allow your copilot to help with transponder settings and audio without going through the GTN. The idea of redundancy is also nice.  The 900 will free up a ton of space too.  

It actually is most practical imo. It's a matter of opinion and depends on your type of flying. I can tell you from experience, in IMC I can access my xponder and audio panel if needed with zero head movement. This is a function that's a lot more difficult to do if separate and impossible if it's all the way on the right. Same with my engine monitor. 

[Bob_Belville]

33 minutes ago, PTK said:

This is a function that's a lot more difficult to do if separate and impossible if it's all the way on the right. Same with my engine monitor. I can access it with zero head movement. 

Sorry but I think that's just nonsense. Your "impossible" has been my ideal set up for almost 5 years. This is a Mooney panel, not a DC3. We can reach the door handle without hardly leaning.

• And I don't recall the last time I had to touch the xponder while in flight.
• My audio panel is right above the 750 so turning on an input is the same reach and sight line on either one except that using the APanel directly does not require pulling up another screen as it might on the 750.
• The EDM is a personal thingy but I like where I put mine. The RAD gives me the RPM/MAP and alarms front and center. The other info on the EDM is not Aviate, it's not Navigate, or and it's not Communicate and it is not worthy of front and center positioning, IMNSHO. Give that stuff to the flight engineer in the back I say, I have an airplane to fly. There's nothing in front of me that I'd kick out to the right in favor of my EDM 930, as useful as it is.

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Sorry but I think that's just nonsense. Your "impossible" has been my ideal set up for almost 5 years. This is a Mooney panel, not a DC3. We can reach the door handle without hardly leaning.

• And I don't recall the last time I had to touch the xponder while in flight.
• My audio panel is right above the 750 so turning on an input is the same reach and sight line on either one except that using the APanel directly does not require pulling up another screen as it might on the 750.
• The EDM is a personal thingy but I like where I put mine. The RAD gives me the RPM/MAP and alarms front and center. The other info on the EDM is not Aviate, it's not Navigate, or and it's not Communicate and it is not worthy of front and center positioning, IMNSHO. Give that stuff to the flight engineer in the back I say, I have an airplane to fly. There's nothing in front of me that I'd kick out to the right in favor of my EDM 930, as useful as it is.

I agree 100%. I can't recall ever having to change anything on my audio panel during flight except to monitor COM 2 for ATIS, and that's a simple pressing of a button.

And a few months ago I questioned why some Mooney's have an IDENT button on the yoke because it seemed like such a foolish idea to me. The responses that I got were ridiculous, some adding that they didn't need to lean over and press the IDENT button on the transponder itself in IMC because it could lead to disorientation. What?? 

[Marauder]

Sorry but I think that's just nonsense. Your "impossible" has been my ideal set up for almost 5 years. This is a Mooney panel, not a DC3. We can reach the door handle without hardly leaning.

• And I don't recall the last time I had to touch the xponder while in flight.
• My audio panel is right above the 750 so turning on an input is the same reach and sight line on either one except that using the APanel directly does not require pulling up another screen as it might on the 750.
• The EDM is a personal thingy but I like where I put mine. The RAD gives me the RPM/MAP and alarms front and center. The other info on the EDM is not Aviate, it's not Navigate, or and it's not Communicate and it is not worthy of front and center positioning, IMNSHO. Give that stuff to the flight engineer in the back I say, I have an airplane to fly. There's nothing in front of me that I'd kick out to the right in favor of my EDM 930, as useful as it is.

Having flown behind a bunch of different panels, I think panel design can be viewed as any other environment that has a user interface. Just like some prefer Macs others prefer Windows based PCs. Some like ForeFlight others Garmin Pilot.

Outside of the standard 6 pack, panel customization can be whatever works for you. Like Bob, I have a engine warning gizmo in front of me but since I don't have a Flight Engineer sitting behind me, I prefer to have the airplane system information in my field of view. Again, just a personal preference.

I also know I have more redundancy in the plane than most and I have gotten some questions about why. Again, a personal preference. I like knowing I have the ability to go to backups if I need to.

For those who are planning rebuilds, that is the perfect time to get it right -- for you. Whatever you read here are the personal opinions of what works for them (or me). I would do a mock up of your proposed panel and see how it feels before I committed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[jetdriven]

21 hours ago, PTK said:

I definitely agree on waiting to see what Oshkosh brings. Who knows maybe Aspen will roll out something new. Their boxes are old technology and overdue for a rejuvenation. Their survival depends on it. Hopefully they'll give Garmin some real competition.  Also we'll see if Avidyne offers anything for their fans. Maybe a pfd/mfd that will be fully compatible with their IFD since they're having some issues with the G500.

Also we'll see what BK will finally do with the KI300. I had heard a while ago that they had scrapped it. But last week my avionics shop told me they have info that it's not scrapped!

 

Aspen, avidyne, and Garmin all dont have anything on the horizon regarding big screen PFD/MFD.  I'm hearing rumors of a Baron being flown with a Dynon Skyvew or similar, to be announced at OSH this summer for certified planes. 

BK can KMA with the stunt they just pulled. They made all their equipment throw-always. After I dump their KT-76A transponder the only garbage of theirs I will have is a KG-102 remote gyro. If it breaks I'll toss it and get a Mid-continent 

Edited June 4, 2017 by jetdriven

[Andy95W]

5 hours ago, jetdriven said:

BK can KMA with the stunt they just pulled. 

I have a Bendix King KMA-24.  Is that what you're referring to here? 

[Rmag]

23 hours ago, INA201 said:

Sounds like the cool clean looking 750 panel isn't the most practical based on what I'm hearing.  It probably is easier to allow your copilot to help with transponder settings and audio without going through the GTN. The idea of redundancy is also nice.  The 900 will free up a ton of space too.  

I went with streamlining the panel and running it all through the GTN 750.  I don't think the transponder is a big deal.  You tap the screen and hit 4 big giant numbers and enter.  If you already have a nice ADSB transponder, no need to change, but I needed one so I went remote.  The audio panel interface on the other hand is awesome.  It is very easy to graphically see your intercoms, who hears what bluetooth music, etc.  It's just a really nice graphical user interface.

Where the GMA-35c GTN 750 pairing really shines is controlling the GTN 750 with Telligence voice control.  I'd say the absolute best use of it is automatically tuning frequencies without having to look them up.  You can command with your voice:

Tune Nearest (or Destination) Tower, CTAF, Unicom, Ground, Clearance, Departure, Approach, etc.

Tune Nearest (or Destination) Weather, AWOS, ASOS, ATIS, etc

Second from that you can verbally select or monitor COM1 or 2

I also use it to quickly toggle between Map, Traffic, Flight Timers pages, VCALC page, etc.  You Zoom in or Zoom out verbally.  So it shortcuts navigating the GTN 750.  Instead of say 3 button presses to access something I can just verbally command it to go where I want.

It can also tell you things verbally.  I can ask it time to descend and it gives me a verbal time, or I can get a verbal bearing and distance or eta to a waypoint or destination.  You don't have to look at a thing or press anything.

The EDM placement I put right above the throttle.  I like it there.  I tend to scan it more than the RAD to make sure all my gauges are in the green.

[Godfather]

My two cents...I have the 750 and 330es mounted to the right. Over the past 600 hours with this combo I find 9/10ths of the time I control the transponder w/ the 750. 

[carusoam]

The only thing that fancy panel needs is some fancy leather covering on the yokes...  

I know of a guy in Texas that is pretty good at these things...

Best regards,

-a-

[tigers2007]

When I did the recent upgrade, the L-3 9000 does not interface with the GTN 650. That is fine for how I fly.

Whoa I thought that the GTN only accepted traffic data from the Lynx. I spoke with both L3 and Garmin and they confirmed this. My panel upgrade should be done in the next week or so; I'll find out then for sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

Whoa I thought that the GTN only accepted traffic data from the Lynx. I spoke with both L3 and Garmin and they confirmed this. My panel upgrade should be done in the next week or so; I'll find out then for sure.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Slow down big guy! We were talking about transponders. The L-3 9000 doesn't interface with the GTN for transponder functions, but you do get TIS-B but not FIS-B.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[INA201]

In my quest to figure out a plan going forward I flew with a buddy in his newly updated Cherokee Six.  He put in all of the bells and whistles and is an amazingly easy way to fly compared to my "Old everything" panel. I really liked the audio panel control, visual flow chart so to speak of the audio, and the 3D sound was also very impressive.  We played some Buffet in the back ground while having AWOS on the 2nd comm(GTN650) radio while calling clearance for a radio check on comm 1. Set it so the music would play even with radio transmissions and the 3D audio makes it all quite easily decipherable, very impressive. He had the voice command too which has a separate little red button on the right side of the yoke.  Push the red button and ask it to "set tower frequency," and it throws it into the box.  Almost seems like cheating. The panel mounted GTX345 can be set in the panel or through the 750 which is nice as well.  I'm thinking of going this route with the 750, remote audio, with the GTX being installed in the panel.  The G500 just ain't gonna happen at this point but is unreal in it's presentation of data. This could be talked about at length. Coupling a GPSS to the Century 2b should also keep me going strong for a while.  At this point I'm inclined to do the 750, 345, remote audio, GPSS, and JPI 900. That's already more AMUs than originally planned but will definitely bring her up to the modern era.  I really appreciate everyone's insight into the panel work and especially the strong opinions towards going bigger screen and a primary engine monitor.  I may have gone too "cheap," if it weren't for everyone's positive opinions on going this route.  I doubt there will be any regrets and "no more crackling noise in my ears!"Now it's time to put the funding plan together.

Photo of the Cherokee Six below.

[Marauder]

In my quest to figure out a plan going forward I flew with a buddy in his newly updated Cherokee Six.  He put in all of the bells and whistles and is an amazingly easy way to fly compared to my "Old everything" panel. I really liked the audio panel control, visual flow chart so to speak of the audio, and the 3D sound was also very impressive.  We played some Buffet in the back ground while having AWOS on the 2nd comm(GTN650) radio while calling clearance for a radio check on comm 1. Set it so the music would play even with radio transmissions and the 3D audio makes it all quite easily decipherable, very impressive. He had the voice command too which has a separate little red button on the right side of the yoke.  Push the red button and ask it to "set tower frequency," and it throws it into the box.  Almost seems like cheating. The panel mounted GTX345 can be set in the panel or through the 750 which is nice as well.  I'm thinking of going this route with the 750, remote audio, with the GTX being installed in the panel.  The G500 just ain't gonna happen at this point but is unreal in it's presentation of data. This could be talked about at length. Coupling a GPSS to the Century 2b should also keep me going strong for a while.  At this point I'm inclined to do the 750, 345, remote audio, GPSS, and JPI 900. That's already more AMUs than originally planned but will definitely bring her up to the modern era.  I really appreciate everyone's insight into the panel work and especially the strong opinions towards going bigger screen and a primary engine monitor.  I may have gone too "cheap," if it weren't for everyone's positive opinions on going this route.  I doubt there will be any regrets and "no more crackling noise in my ears!"Now it's time to put the funding plan together.
Photo of the Cherokee Six below.

You're hooked. Addicting isn't it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Bob_Belville]

48 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

You're hooked. Addicting isn't it?

 

Aw, it's all good. It's just money and you can't take "it" with you anyway.

[INA201]

I'm hooked! ....Wait, Ive got it all completely under control.

[Marauder]

I'm hooked! ....Wait, Ive got it all completely under control.

Posting this for Andy but it can help fire your addiction.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Browncbr1]

Maurader, your panel really sucks man...i mean, .. it really really sucks... you need to do something this if you really want to stand out these days... 

 

 

just kidding!...

 

now you can panel shame me.....    Well, not really, sense the pictures are how my panel looked when I bought her... 

It's better now... and will be vastly better soon hopefully!!..  

 

f(x) = G - (H - (((s * m) / t) * F)

s = degrees of sickness

m = degree of financial means

t = time

F = times screwed by avionics shop

x = panel satisfaction 

G = what you get

H = what you were hoping for

[Marauder]

Maurader, your panel really sucks man...i mean, .. it really really sucks... you need to do something this if you really want to stand out these days... 
 



 
just kidding!...
 
now you can panel shame me.....    Well, not really, sense the pictures are how my panel looked when I bought her... 
It's better now... and will be vastly better soon hopefully!!..  
 
f(x) = G - (H - (((s * m) / t) * F)
s = degrees of sickness
m = degree of financial means
t = time
F = times screwed by avionics shop
x = panel satisfaction 
G = what you get
H = what you were hoping for

From the show Kung Fu:

Master Kan: "In one lifetime, a man knows many pleasures: a mother's smile in waking hours, a young woman's intimate, searing touch, and the laughter of grandchildren in the twilight years.

The greatest of these pleasures is flying behind a brand new instrument panel packed with the latest avionics".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[carusoam]

Aaah grasshopper...

It is equally important to have solid, the photographs of one's humble beginnings....

Because the after pics won't carry the same meaning without The before pics! 

Best regards,

-a-