Avidyne IFD 540/440-Garmin 500 software bug

[PTK]

28 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

No, because . .  t-h-e   s-h-o-p   t-h-a-t   d-i-d   t-h-e   w-o-r-k   s-h-o-u-l-d   h-a-v-e   v-e-r-i-f-i-e-d   c-o-m-p-a-t-i-b-i-l-i-t-y   b-e-f-o-r-e   t-h-e-y   w-e-n-t   a-h-e-a-d   w-i-t-h   a-n-y   s-o-f-t-w-a-r-e    u-p-d-a-t-e-s   o-n   e-i-t-h-e-r   b-o-x.

This may be hard to understand but not every version of software on one box is compatible with every version of software on another box. The person doing the updates is responsible to verify first.

And of course Avidyne makes false statements like "...we have customers out there with the G500/600 who have a later than 6.21 software and the Release 10.2 with no issues..."

Which is incorrect as evidenced by yet another customer account...

"...I have bought a Avidyne IFD440/540 combo and Garmin G500 in November 2017. Therefore my G500 have Vers. 7.12 at delivery!!! In the installation Manual at this Date is nothing written about the G500 Software Version!!

For me it is frustrating cause I have spend a lot of money, and now I have a lot of problems with the IFD..."

Do you still insist on giving them a free pass and continue to blame the shop??

[LANCECASPER]

28 minutes ago, PTK said:

1) And of course Avidyne makes statements like "...we have customers out there with the G500/600 who have a later than 6.21 software and the Release 10.2 with no issues..."

Which is incorrect as evidenced by yet another customer account...

2) "...I have bought a Avidyne IFD440/540 combo and Garmin G500 in November 2017. Therefore my G500 have Vers. 7.12 at delivery!!! In the installation Manual at this Date is nothing written about the G500 Software Version!!

For me it is frustrating cause I have spend a lot of money, and now I have a lot of problems with the IFD..."

3) Do you still insist on giving them a free pass and continue to blame the shop??

1) Once again check your facts to avoid being wrong. Do your homework and you'll find that Garmin had other releases after 6.21 and before 7.12.

2) Obviously you meant November 2016 since November 2017 doesn't happen for 5 more months. Of course 7.12 wasn't in the Avidyne manual yet, it had just been released by Garmin that month. Hello . . . wake up . . . the fact that it wasn't in the manual should have been a clear indication that it may not be compatible. Why not make a phone call to verify? How could Avidyne possibly test Garmin's software before it's released? Another perfect example of the installer just assuming that everything is compatible. Why would Avidyne get blamed in this case and not Garmin? Actually neither company is to blame, once again it is the installer. We hold a mechanic responsible if he installs an incompatible part to that airframe. We hold a line person responsible who puts Jet-A in a piston airplane. Why wouldn't an installer be responsible if he installs software which is not compatible?

3) The one who you are giving the free pass to is the installer who simply needed to determine which versions of each software were compatible and then go with that. That person didn't do their job and the customer suffers. This is becoming more and more common as the boxes that are installed are more software driven. Both of these companies make excellent products but they have to have compatible software to function properly. Where the buck stops is the person who is signing the logs books. He is saying the current configuration is airworthy. If he hasn't verified that with the companies he is just guessing.

[OliverBucher]

9 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

No, because . .  t-h-e   s-h-o-p   t-h-a-t   d-i-d   t-h-e   w-o-r-k   s-h-o-u-l-d   h-a-v-e   v-e-r-i-f-i-e-d   c-o-m-p-a-t-i-b-i-l-i-t-y   b-e-f-o-r-e   t-h-e-y   w-e-n-t   a-h-e-a-d   w-i-t-h   a-n-y   s-o-f-t-w-a-r-e    u-p-d-a-t-e-s   o-n   e-i-t-h-e-r   b-o-x.

This may be hard to understand but not every version of software on one box is compatible with every version of software on another box. The person doing the updates is responsible to verify first.

Sorry - to write what the shop had to Check is to easy! 

Have you read the installation manual that was actual for about 6 months (time of my Installation)? I think no! There is nothing written in about software versions of the G500, or what Software version will be clarified by Avidyne. There is als nothing written in the STC (witch is also basis of the EASA certification).

After there is a issue, it is to easy to say "we will  inform you when it is allow to update to a new G500 Software version" - cause there was nothing puplished.

It is not so easy to downgrade a software version.

[PTK]

3 hours ago, OliverBucher said:

Sorry - to write what the shop had to Check is to easy! 

Have you read the installation manual that was actual for about 6 months (time of my Installation)? I think no! There is nothing written in about software versions of the G500, or what Software version will be clarified by Avidyne. There is als nothing written in the STC (witch is also basis of the EASA certification).

After there is a issue, it is to easy to say "we will  inform you when it is allow to update to a new G500 Software version" - cause there was nothing puplished.

It is not so easy to downgrade a software version.

Oliver, he and others wants to crucify the shop who is working diligently to troubleshoot and help the customer! The shop who, without any guidance from Avidyne, is doing the troubleshooting that Avidyne was supposed to do! The same Avidyne who is holding on to your and othets' money while your plane is grounded! 

What the shops need to do is drop them. Refuse to install their hardware unless Avidyne provides guidance and guarantees of compatibilities. 

[PTK]

12 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

1) Once again check your facts to avoid being wrong. Do your homework and you'll find that Garmin had other releases after 6.21 and before 7.12.

2) Obviously you meant November 2016 since November 2017 doesn't happen for 5 more months. Of course 7.12 wasn't in the Avidyne manual yet, it had just been released by Garmin that month. Hello . . . wake up . . . the fact that it wasn't in the manual should have been a clear indication that it may not be compatible. Why not make a phone call to verify? How could Avidyne possibly test Garmin's software before it's released? Another perfect example of the installer just assuming that everything is compatible. Why would Avidyne get blamed in this case and not Garmin? Actually neither company is to blame, once again it is the installer. We hold a mechanic responsible if he installs an incompatible part to that airframe. We hold a line person responsible who puts Jet-A in a piston airplane. Why wouldn't an installer be responsible if he installs software which is not compatible?

3) The one who you are giving the free pass to is the installer who simply needed to determine which versions of each software were compatible and then go with that. That person didn't do their job and the customer suffers. This is becoming more and more common as the boxes that are installed are more software driven. Both of these companies make excellent products but they have to have compatible software to function properly. Where the buck stops is the person who is signing the logs books. He is saying the current configuration is airworthy. If he hasn't verified that with the companies he is just guessing.

It is incumbent on Avidyne to provide clear guidance. They failed miserably. It is Avidyne who didn't do their job.

What the shops need to do is drop Avidyne like a hot potato! Refuse to install and recommend against their hardware unless Avidyne provides them with clear guidance and guarantees of compatibilities. 

[LANCECASPER]

If you do your research you'll see that Garmin has been chasing this issue in G500, 600, 950 and 1000 installations for years - long before Avidyne introduced the IFD540. They had issues when Garmin 530's and 430's were installed with G500's and when GIA63's were installed with G1000's, when GIA63W's were installed, etc, etc. This is not new - this has been going on for nearly 9 years. The vast majority of G500 owners are satisfied and haven't had problems. The ones who have had problems have been very frustrated. The vast majority of Avidyne owners are extremely satisfied. Spend some time at the Avidyne booth at Sun N' Fun or Oshkosh and you'll see it for yourself.

According to Peter, if the same remedy is applied to Garmin as Avidyne, then all shops should drop Garmin and refuse to install any of their equipment. All owners should rip out the offending equipment and march down the streets of Olathe KS in protest. But what do most reasonable people do? They work through the issue until it's resolved. This is one of the prices we pay for progress. There are those who complain and there are those who get things done. Is it frustrating? Of course. Feedback will get any good company's attention. You have Avidyne's attention - they are working on it. I would be equally bending Garmin's ear as well since losing AHRS has been a weak spot in their glass panels.

Installation manuals are good the day they are printed but subject to change. What is the difference between people who are staified and people who aren't? Many times it does come down to the competency of the shop that did the work: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=139908   Read through that thread and see if it was the manufacturer's fault or the fault of the shop that installed the equipment.

What would it hurt to call Garmin and Avidyne Tech Support before major surgery on the panel to see how the current versions are playing with each other? This thread wouldn't exist if that had been done, but then there would be nothing to complain about.

[PTK]

10 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

If you do your research you'll see that Garmin has been chasing this issue in G500, 600, 950 and 1000 installations for years - long before Avidyne introduced the IFD540. They had issues when Garmin 530's and 430's were installed with G500's and when GIA63's were installed with G1000's, when GIA63W's were installed, etc, etc. This is not new - this has been going on for nearly 9 years. The vast majority of G500 owners are satisfied and haven't had problems. The ones who have had problems have been very frustrated. The vast majority of Avidyne owners are extremely satisfied. Spend some time at the Avidyne booth at Sun N' Fun or Oshkosh and you'll see it for yourself.

According to Peter, if the same remedy is applied to Garmin as Avidyne, then all shops should drop Garmin and refuse to install any of their equipment. All owners should rip out the offending equipment and march down the streets of Olathe KS in protest. But what do most reasonable people do? They work through the issue until it's resolved. This is one of the prices we pay for progress. There are those who complain and there are those who get things done. Is it frustrating? Of course. Feedback will get any good company's attention. You have Avidyne's attention - they are working on it. I would be equally bending Garmin's ear as well since losing AHRS has been a weak spot in their glass panels.

Installation manuals are good the day they are printed but subject to change. What is the difference between people who are staified and people who aren't? Many times it does come down to the competency of the shop that did the work: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=139908   Read through that thread and see if it was the manufacturer's fault or the fault of the shop that installed the equipment.

What would it hurt to call Garmin and Avidyne Tech Support before major surgery on the panel to see how the current versions are playing with each other? This thread wouldn't exist if that had been done, but then there would be nothing to complain about.

You have a tendency to talk out of both sides of your mouth. If, as you say, this is just the way it is and the price we pay for progress then why do you need to blame anyone? Why do you need to blame the shop? After all it's just the way it is right?! Reason is I suspect that's not the way it is! 

The way it is as I see it is you have three parties here: Avidyne who is the manufacturer of both the hardware and software, the install shop and the customer who pays them both. As in any arrangement there has to be a win for all parties involved. In this particular case it's a win, lose and double lose. Avidyne wins because they sold the customer a bill of goods that doesn't work but received top dollar for it. And according to you they did nothing wrong. Because that's the way it is! The shop loses having to go through the hassles of troubleshooting something that was doomed to fail before Avidyne even released it. The poor customer is the double loser because he paid the big bucks and has to ground his plane!

Now of course according to you Avidyne had no responsibility because they walk on water and of course you can't blame the poor customer! How could you! So you crucify the shop! Even though that's the way it is you got to blame somebody!

Only problem is you fail to see that Avidyne is holding both the customer and the shop hostage! Yes I know...that's the way it is! 

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, PTK said:

You have a tendency to talk out of both sides of your mouth. If, as you say, this is just the way it is and the price we pay for progress then why do you need to blame anyone? Why do you need to blame the shop? After all it's just the way it is right?! Reason is I suspect that's not the way it is! 

The way it is as I see it is you have three parties here: Avidyne who is the manufacturer of both the hardware and software, the install shop and the customer who pays them both. As in any arrangement there has to be a win for all parties involved. In this particular case it's a win, lose and double lose. Avidyne wins because they sold the customer a bill of goods that doesn't work but received top dollar for it. And according to you they did nothing wrong. Because that's the way it is! The shop loses having to go through the hassles of troubleshooting something that was doomed to fail before Avidyne even released it. The poor customer is the double loser because he paid the big bucks and has to ground his plane!

Now of course according to you Avidyne had no responsibility because they walk on water and of course you can't blame the poor customer! How could you! So you crucify the shop! Even though that's the way it is you got to blame somebody!

Only problem is you fail to see that Avidyne is holding both the customer and the shop hostage! Yes I know...that's the way it is! 

At least it's my mouth that I talk out of.

I enjoy the way you ignore what's brought to your attention about the problems that have existed with the G500 that have nothing to do with Avidyne. 

Should this customer hold Garmin accountable or the shop that installed it?  https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=139908

The customer that posted here on Mooneyspace about their Avidyne/G500 problems has three choices:

1) Insist that the shop take the units back to a software combination, which does in fact exist, that was tested and approved and works. The shop should have done this in the first place. 

or   2) Wait for 10.2.1 from Avidyne, but do not update G500 software past 7.12 while waiting for 10.1.2

or   3) Sit and complain

I know which one you would choose, hopefully the customer picks the 1st choice which gets him back in the air right away. Any of the three is fine with me since my Avidyne IFD550 is working beautifully. 

[PTK]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

At least it's my mouth that I talk out of.

I enjoy the way you ignore what's brought to your attention about the problems that have existed with the G500 that have nothing to do with Avidyne. 

Should this customer hold Garmin accountable or the shop that installed it?  https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=139908

The customer that posted here on Mooneyspace about their Avidyne/G500 problems has three choices:

1) Insist that the shop take the units back to a software combination, which does in fact exist, that was tested and approved and works. The shop should have done this in the first place. 

or   2) Wait for 10.2.1 from Avidyne, but do not update G500 software past 7.12 while waiting for 10.1.2

or   3) Sit and complain

I know which one you would choose, hopefully the customer picks the 1st choice which gets him back in the air right away. Any of the three is fine with me since my Avidyne IFD550 is working beautifully. 

1. Roll back to which software combinations? Avidyne doesn't know!

2. So the customer is the one who should wait around? This is exactly what it means to hold the customer hostage! You would have another customer with a grounded plane wait for Avidyne to hopefully get their act together! Would you be willing to do that?

Your bt reference is irrelevent.

Here's an idea: if the customer does agree to wait around how about Avidyne show some consideration and pay them to wait? Say 1K$ per day? After all they are a valued customer right? Or if they're not willing to pay take the units back refund the customer and life goes on.

I would respect your opinion if, instead of saying that's the way it is and the customer has to just shut up and wait, you said that's the way it is when mixing in different manufacturers as in a high end G500 panel for example. It really is best to stay within one vendor if they offer an intergrated solution. At the present time it happens to be Garmin. In the future it may very well be Avidyne or someone else. But right now Avidyne should not bite more than it can chew and stick to being a GNS alternative in a simple panel. I'm not knocking Avidyne and I'm glad you're happy. 

[LANCECASPER]

31 minutes ago, PTK said:

1. Roll back to which software combinations? Avidyne doesn't know!

2. So the customer is the one who should wait around? This is exactly what it means to hold the customer hostage! You would have another customer with a grounded plane wait for Avidyne to hopefully get their act together! Would you be willing to do that?

Your bt reference is irrelevent.

Here's an idea: if the customer does agree to wait around how about Avidyne show some consideration and pay them to wait? Say 1K$ per day? After all they are a valued customer right? Or if they're not willing to pay take the units back refund the customer and life goes on.

I would respect your opinion if, instead of saying that's the way it is and the customer has to just shut up and wait, you said that's the way it is when mixing in different manufacturers as in a high end G500 panel for example. It really is best to stay within one vendor if they offer an intergrated solution. At the present time it happens to be Garmin. In the future it may very well be Avidyne or someone else. But right now Avidyne should not bite more than it can chew and stick to being a GNS alternative in a simple panel. I'm not knocking Avidyne and I'm glad you're happy. 

1. We know for sure that Garmin software GDU v6.21, GDC v3.09, GMU v2.01worked with Avidyne 10.1.3. It was Garmin's update of GDU 7.21 that is not compatible with Avidyne 10.1.3 or 10.2. Simply go back to GDU v6.21, GDC v3.09, GMU v2.01 and Avidyne 10.1.3 until it all gets sorted out.

2. My 2nd suggestion was sarcastic, why would anyone wait and not just go back to the software that worked?

The Beechtalk reference was completely relevant ( https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=139908). You have to either say that (1) all of the equipment he put in (100% Garmin) doesn't work together, which I believe it does, if all of the software levels are compatible or (2) it was a bad install, which can happen. Which was it? You're saying that all Garmin stuff always works 100% of the time no matter what software levels they are at and that an installer should never be blamed. Sorry it has to be one or the other. We are waiting with baited breath wondering which you'll pick.

Your suggestion of having Avidyne pay him reveals how biased you are. The Avidyne equipment is working just fine, the Red X's are on the Garmin G500, yet both Avidyne and Garmin are behaving like adults and continuing to work toward a solution, something that reasonable people and companies do. 

[PTK]

7 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

1. We know for sure that Garmin software GDU v6.21, GDC v3.09, GMU v2.01worked with Avidyne 10.1.3. It was Garmin's update of GDU 7.21 that is not compatible with Avidyne 10.1.3 or 10.2. Simply go back to GDU v6.21, GDC v3.09, GMU v2.01 and Avidyne 10.1.3 until it all gets sorted out.

2. My 2nd suggestion was sarcastic, why would anyone wait and not just go back to the software that worked?

The Beechtalk reference was completely relevant ( https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=139908). You have to either say that (1) all of the equipment he put in (100% Garmin) doesn't work together, which I believe it does, if all of the software levels are compatible or (2) it was a bad install, which can happen. Which was it? You're saying that all Garmin stuff always works 100% of the time no matter what software levels they are at and that an installer should never be blamed. Sorry it has to be one or the other. We are waiting with baited breath wondering which you'll pick.

Your suggestion of having Avidyne pay him reveals how biased you are. The Avidyne equipment is working just fine, the Red X's are on the Garmin G500, yet both Avidyne and Garmin are behaving like adults and continuing to work toward a solution, something that reasonable people and companies do. 

I don't feel he should be forced to roll back and wait indefinitely without compensation. 

Your BT example is still irrelevent. This fiasco is the result of a lack of compatibility and guidance on the part of Avidyne.

The Avidyne equipment is not working just fine in his airplane.

Again I'll refer you back to the three parties involved. Avidyne sold the equipment and got paid well. The shop installed it and is going through the hassle of troubleshooting. To the best of my knowledge they are paid by Avidyne. What Avidyne is doing is damage control and cutting their losses. It is better for them to pay the shop rather than refund the customer. The major looser here unfortunately is the trusting customer. He paid the big bucks and is sitting on the ground with his airplane.

Not only should Avidyne pay him but if he chooses to return their equipment for a refund they should also pay the shop to install whatever he chooses to replace it. 

What happened to the Avidyne entegra?  

Thinning, hopefully you are able to come to terms with this fiasco and you're satisfied with your decision. It's very easy for others to have opinions when on the outside looking in. 

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

I agree completely! I make it a goal to try to get along with everyone. The one thing I have a hard time ignoring though are lies. If PTK slams Garmin or Avidyne or Mooney or anyone Mooneyspace member with things that absolutely are untrue I have a hard time with self control, wanting to correct an injustice. But I'm done. Anyone who reads all the way through the post will see it for what it is. He can continue to post whatever he likes on this and I won't directly respond. There's nothing that makes someone who likes to argue more frustrated than someone who won't argue back.

On to much more positive things . . . Avidyne offers things on their IFD550 GPS/NAV/COM that aren't available anywhere else, so it will be well worth the effort for Thinwing to allow Garmin and Avidyne to get things sorted out. When the IFD550 was introduced they allowed current IFD540 owners an upgrade path at a reasonable cost with a new warranty and zero install costs. I just swapped mine out a few days ago and am looking forward to flying with it. 

The architecture on the Avidyne IFD means that many more good things are in the pipeline for down that road.

 

[co2bruce]

I'm sorry to scratch this scab but has this issue been resolved, if no, how long has it been going on?

[Simpson Bennett]

Here's an update:

We have been in contact with 8 customers who are reporting this issue. We've had a series of test flights with our test aircraft after updating to the latest G500 software. Unfortunately, we couldn't get our G500 to replicate the issue in our test bed aircraft but were able to replicate it in our lab. We do have a good understanding of what might causing the issue. After a few more tests and eliminating any other theories, we will be testing the fix.

This issue is still the driving force behind Release 10.2.1 timeline. The plan is to still have this update approved/released in the September/October timeframe.

[Godfather]

I really hope @thinwing purchased / was loaned a 530w to get his plane back in the air.  No reason to let a plane gather dust all summer for an easy interm solution. 

[thinwing]

Hello all....well the issue is still arround...funny it doesn't happen every flight....like this flight into Jackson hole wy...as you see ,we had a little weather to contend with .

[thinwing]

Upon departure no red x into IFR.....but than twice at Bozeman,once at salmon Idaho and a low IFR departure from Astoria Ore...my wife didn't care for that one so much...oh an Hyatt the little red bus is just fine,,