First Annual

[KLRDMD]

I just received the invoice for the first annual on the 231 I bought last fall. As with most of the 14 airplanes I've owned, I did not do a pre-buy inspection.  And, as with a number of airplanes I've owned, I did not see this airplane "in the flesh" until it was delivered to me. 

The flat rate annual at my shop for a Mooney M20K is $2,380.00. The main IA I work with personally flies a Mooney Rocket so he knowns Mooneys and Mooneys of the 231 persuasion. First annuals are always eye opening, right ? And if you don't do a pre-buy, you're a fool and most here would tell you to add a zero to the invoice if not just expect to part it out once you do that first good inspection.

My annual was in and out of the shop in five business days and the final shop invoice was $2,796.64.

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I just received the invoice for the first annual on the 231 I bought last fall. As with most of the 14 airplanes I've owned, I did not do a pre-buy inspection.  And, as with a number of airplanes I've owned, I did not see this airplane "in the flesh" until it was delivered to me. 

The flat rate annual at my shop for a Mooney M20K is $2,380.00. The main IA I work with personally flies a Mooney Rocket so he knowns Mooneys and Mooneys of the 231 persuasion. First annuals are always eye opening, right ? And if you don't do a pre-buy, you're a fool and most here would tell you to add a zero to the invoice if not just expect to part it out once you do that first good inspection.

My annual was in and out of the shop in five business days and the final shop invoice was $2,796.64.

Say hi to Troy.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

Say hi to Troy.

I see him just about every week,

[dlthig]

8 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I just received the invoice for the first annual on the 231 I bought last fall. As with most of the 14 airplanes I've owned, I did not do a pre-buy inspection.  And, as with a number of airplanes I've owned, I did not see this airplane "in the flesh" until it was delivered to me. 

The flat rate annual at my shop for a Mooney M20K is $2,380.00. The main IA I work with personally flies a Mooney Rocket so he knowns Mooneys and Mooneys of the 231 persuasion. First annuals are always eye opening, right ? And if you don't do a pre-buy, you're a fool and most here would tell you to add a zero to the invoice if not just expect to part it out once you do that first good inspection.

My annual was in and out of the shop in five business days and the final shop invoice was $2,796.64.

I'd give the previous owner and mechanic a big wet kiss! Metaphorically, of course.

[epsalant]

I'd give the previous owner and mechanic a big wet kiss! Metaphorically, of course.

What's your secret?

I think if you know an airplane's owner and mechanics then you have a big head up. I don't think you want to give people the impression that a pre-buy is, in general, unnecessary.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Cyril Gibb]

11 minutes ago, epsalant said:

I think if you know an airplane's owner and mechanics then you have a big head up. I don't think you want to give people the impression that a pre-buy is, in general, unnecessary.
 

 

Agree wholeheartedly.  From various threads here and elsewhere, people avoid PPIs at their peril.  The J that I almost bought looked fine, flew fine and on paper had no issues, in reality had terminal corrosion very hidden and visible only with a mirror on a long rod.  It would have been scrap value. 

If someone has bought 14 planes, they may be in a snack bracket where an unfortunate gamble may be just an annoyance.  For many of us, finding out that our purchase was to be turned into beer cans would be a financial disaster.

[epsalant]

What's PPI ?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[epsalant]

Never mind. I figured it out!

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[KLRDMD]

6 hours ago, epsalant said:

What's your secret? I think if you know an airplane's owner and mechanics then you have a big head up. I don't think you want to give people the impression that a pre-buy is, in general, unnecessary.

 

A pre-buy may or may not be necessary. I hate to give the I'm impression that every airplane requires an expensive pre-buy. Some do, some don't. Knowing the right questions to ask is most of the answer. Ask the right questions, evaluate not only the actual answer but also the manner in which it is given and the knowledge of the one providing the answer. As has been said, you're buying the previous owner as much as the airplane. If I trust the seller, that goes a long way. 

My current 231: Listed by Jimmy Garrison, maintained by Dugosh. A pre-buy would be a waste of money, in my opinion.

My previous Bravo. Don Maxwell was selling it for the widow. Don had maintained it, since new I believe. It had just come out of annual. Who are you going to take an airplane with that pedigree to for a pre-buy ? Just write the check.

I bought a different airplane without a pre-buy from someone I trusted from knowing on-line for a couple of years. I didn't exactly get burned but I didn't get the airplane I thought I was getting either. At the first annual after I bought it, I did an owner assisted annual so I saw everything first hand. The airplane was painted a couple of years before I bought it. It had two annuals after the paint. When I removed the inspection covers for the annual, the screws had never been turned after having been painted. The prop hub took two full cartridges of grease, it couldn't have had any in it. I replaced the entire exhaust at annual despite it being "rebuilt" two years before. Obviously the previous annuals were pencil whipped. It wasn't terribly expensive to get right but I was very disappointed.

I've been in two partnerships and didn't do a pre-buy on either of those airplanes.

Talking with a seller, I walked away when the owner proudly proclaimed that he ran the engine at 50º ROP.

I did very abbreviated pre-buys on each of the two 182s I've owned. One was two hours and the other one hour, just a quick look-see by an IA.

By the time you get to being serious about buying an airplane, you should have most of the data you need. Based on your data collection, either do a pre-buy or don't and make the pre-buy as long as as short as needed to get the rest of the information you need to make a decision. I'll never do an annual as a pre-buy as some suggest. An annual looks at different things (as an example, no annual I've ever had mentions anything about the avionics, which can be a huge portion of the purchase price).

And DON'T try to get the deal of the century. Be fair as a buyer and seller in price and everything else. Be honest. That goes a long way too.

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

As is usually the case, Ken's advice is solid.  Under the right circumstances, a PPI is unnecessary and is a total waste of money. Not for first time buyers, though, and certainly not for bottom feeders. I did not have one done on my J, and it had almost 10,000 hours on the airframe and had been in a mid air.  It also had a Top Gun maintenance history and a very meticulous owner, though, and I had 25 years of Mooney ownership experience at the time and also realistic expectations. 11 years later and no regrets. 

Jim

The paint on your airplane is unbelievable. Having shown up in a literally just freshly repainted plane (we painted the last few details that morning) You couldnt tell which one was shinier. Thats Imron for you.

[jetdriven]

Just now, bluehighwayflyer said:

Thanks, Byron. Of course yours looks better but mine looks pretty darn good to have been painted in 1986. You are absolutely right about the Imron. Constant hangarage is the other necessary ingredient. At this rate I might never get to paint her.

So my plane has a 30 year newer paint job and looks the same. That says a lot about the owner.

[N201MKTurbo]

15 hours ago, dlthig said:

I'd give the previous owner and mechanic a big wet kiss! Metaphorically, of course.

That would be Tucson Air Center at KAVQ. Troy is the boss and he will treat you right! 

I was just hanging out at his place today.

[xcrmckenna]

I'm still glad it took me 2.5 years searching for my Mooney. Each their own.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KLRDMD]

6 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

I'm still glad it took me 2.5 years searching for my Mooney. Each their own.

Why would you be glad that you couldn't fly an airplane you wanted for 2.5 years ? Plenty of people find and buy an airplane in a month, I don't understand how it can possibly take 2.5 years to find the right airplane.

[Godfather]

22 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

Why would you be glad that you couldn't fly an airplane you wanted for 2.5 years ? Plenty of people find and buy an airplane in a month, I don't understand how it can possibly take 2.5 years to find the right airplane.

Do you realize how much money one could save going without a plane for 2.5 years!  My Operating expense over the past three years could almost land me a J...

Edited May 29, 2017 by Godfather

[carusoam]

Way to go Ken!

There are a few ways to mitigate risk 

1) buy top ranked airplane

2) that is in tip top condition

3) from top ranked selling organization 

4) that was maintained by a top rated MSC 

5) did you know the previous owner too? 

-or-

get a PPI from a top ranked shop.

-or-

get a PPI from a mechanic that is Mooney knowledgeable.

-or-

really roll the dice...

 

mitigating risk has its challenges and its costs. A PPI isn't perfect. 

 

Notes for first time plane buyer:

1) Ken qualifies as a discriminating buyer.

2) If you buy the planes that Ken buys...

3) you can use the method Ken uses...

4) and benefit from the savings from not using a PPI.

5) There really will be planes that do not need a PPI.

6) There really will be many more planes that lack provenance in the lower price level...

7) Use the PPI to protect your wallet.

 

Remember, at the current rate that Ken buys a plane, he may keep it a year or two...

 

A plane with great provenance and continued maintenance is going to come up for sale in the, relatively short, future...

I would still be using a PPI for the acquisition.

1) PPI at a reputable shop identifies the expensive things that may deteriorate between annuals, minimizing financial risk.

2) A good PPI turns into an annual inspection, that applies towards the next years operating budget. Making the good PPI actually free of cost...

3) a kinda good PPI identifies things that need to get fixed up according to the new owner's requests.

4) a really good PPI identifies something that keeps the buyer from being stuck buying an un-airworthy plane...

 

Take Ken's advice, if able!

Best regard,

-a-

Edited May 29, 2017 by carusoam

[xcrmckenna]

Why would you be glad that you couldn't fly an airplane you wanted for 2.5 years ? Plenty of people find and buy an airplane in a month, I don't understand how it can possibly take 2.5 years to find the right airplane.

Of course what pilot out there wouldn't love to be flying???

That doesn't mean just because I can afford a plane that I should go out and buy the first one I found. I don't fly for a job. I bought a plane because I wanted to not because I needed to or that it would make work much easier. So it gave me the opportunity or time to know what I was looking for. Trust me I have bugged a lot of people on here and other people about their Mooney or questions about Mooneys. I wanted to get actual seat time in a Mooney and not just go up with a friend for an hour and say yes this is a plane for me. So I found a 201 for rent and got my complex in it. At that point I moved from looking at a E models to 201's. There are about 30 201's listed for sale at any one time on trade a plane, barnstormer, and controller. Knowing what I wanted and utilizing aopa's rvef I had a better idea of what to expect to pay for a plane. My budget and needs for a plane put me in the 77'to 84 range. So that limited the pool even more. Then the real fun part began. Getting to meet plane owners that are trying to sell their planes. Everyone had a plane that was fabulous. Not the case, and you touched on that with one of your planes. Being my first plane I would own I was not about to jump into the first plane I liked the looks of. There was no point in owning a plane just because I could. It was all about finding a plane that was in my budget and wasn't a money pit other than things I wanted to spend money on or general maintenance. I was far from looking for the cheapest 201 out there. I was looking for a plane I would feel good about taking friends and family up in. I think there has been just as many cases of people getting screwed out of high price planes as low price planes. I wasn't about to let the price of the plane dictate the condition it was in. I allowed a professional mechanic look over the three planes I put through prebuy. One Don Maxwell, Daryl Dash and David at Dugosh. The first two the planes came back with considerable issues. One of them the engine was making metal. At that point was I suppose to still buy the plane?

Don did tell me one thing that maybe I took the wrong way or Miss understood him, but he said in all his years of doing prebuy there has been less than a handful he said it should NOT have been bought. Well that tells me either Mooneys are really great planes or the airplane community just wants to pass the ball to the next owner. Sure I would of loved to walked out the door and found a plane and spent the last two and a half years flying. But you know what the plane I have now wasn't for sale and avionics, interior, and exterior it has NONE of the 20+ planes I looked at or requested info on could touch the one I have now, and many of those planes are still for sale, or have changed owners at least once. I looked at more expensive planes and cheaper planes. I'm glad you have had great luck buying planes but I don't believe that is the norm.

I'm glad I waited and VERY glad I didn't buy any of the planes I looked at in the past. I'm not saying my plane is in better shape than any other plane out there because it's not. There are things that I have already changed and continue to look at changing but it's by far way more plane than I expected to find compared to the planes I was looking at in the 77's to 84's.

I bought my planes out of my savings not on money I plan to make down the road, or for a tax write off. Maybe not for some on here but for me $82,500 is a lot of money. I have no desire to throw good money at a problem plane than myself being far from an expert can tell this is a money trap.

I wouldn't say anyone is an idiot for buying good airplanes without looking at them. But I'm far from an idiot or don't really have the desire not to buy a plane just because it took me 2 and a half years to buy mine.

Again each their own.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xcrmckenna]

Just imagine how much more expeditious the buying process will be for you next time. I think that was Ken's point. As in all things there is a learning curve. 
I'm glad you found a good one!
Jim

I'm glad for the things I have learned over the last 2.5 years without a plane, and with lots more help I will continue to learn. But from other threads and posts I don't think that was the intent. And if I had found my plane 2.5 years ago I would have bought it just the same after Dugosh said it was good to go, it I felt it was worth it and I was willing to put my world in it.

Just because Ken has been lucky or is better at buying a plane than most of us, doesnt mean his way is the only way. Or his expectations of what others should do should be done. Maybe I took the thread posted awhile ago in the buying threads personal saying

"It doesn't take two freakin' years to buy an airplane !!!"

But if he wants to give me his check book I'll gladly buy my next one:)






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KLRDMD]

1 minute ago, xcrmckenna said:

"It doesn't take two freakin' years to buy an airplane !!!"

True statement.

[xcrmckenna]

True statement.

Well of course it doesn't take two years, but that doesn't mean that it can take two years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Guest]

I would not buy a plane without a through PPI.  The cost of the inspection is very low relative to the cost of the plane and the potential financial issues which can be avoided.

Clarence

[DonMuncy]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

A good PPI turns into an annual inspection, that applies towards the next years operating budget. Making the good PPI actually free of cost...

 

This presumes the plane "passes" the PPI. If it doesn't, the cost of the PPI is a dead loss. (Maybe "passing" is what Carusoam calls a good PPI) This doesn't mean I don't advocate getting one. It is just a fact of life, that it might be an unrecoverable cost. This is actually a very small cost in the overall plane ownership experience. But I know it doesn't seem that way when you are the one shelling out that payment.

[gsengle]

Nah if one fails, it's priceless....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

If you have ever heard the phrase 'your first loss is your best loss'

This is in regards to an investment that you take a few expensive steps to get fully invested. If your first step starts losing money and you get out of the investment before throwing more on the fire... you learned enough from your first loss...

You have gotten out in the best condition possible.  Yes, you still lost money.  Just less than you could have otherwise...

 

In agreement with DonM, a good PPI is one that passes successfully. I Probably should have typed that out better to begin with, I just didn't know how...

When looking for a good quality PPI, an MSC is typically a good place to go...

Having the plane pass the good PPI with good results... is even better!

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited May 30, 2017 by carusoam

[Godfather]

Just now, DonMuncy said:

This presumes the plane "passes" the PPI. If it doesn't, the cost of the PPI is a dead loss. (Maybe "passing" is what Carusoam calls a good PPI) This doesn't mean I don't advocate getting one. It is just a fact of life, that it might be an unrecoverable cost. This is actually a very small cost in the overall plane ownership experience. But I know it doesn't seem that way when you are the one shelling out that payment.

Not to mention taking time off work, flight to see the bird, etc. the process can be very expensive. When I look at owning any plane I see 8-25k (depending on plane and hrs per year) spent to keep it going per year. So the purchase price is a small factor when looking at owning a plane for 10-15 years.  

1NU I'm glad you found a bird you can be proud of.