Garwin cluster - Required for airworthiness??

[ragedracer1977]

Just something I was thinking about.  On the M20C I'm looking at, the owner mentioned that the CHT and AMPS gauge no longer function, because the sensors were removed when the UBG-16 was installed (this happened long before he owned it).  He's just put INOP stickers on the gauges.  

Is that acceptable?  I seem to find some conflicting information there and I want to make sure it's addressed (Point it out to the mechanic) if they are required to be working.

 

[PTK]

If the UBG-16 is primary for those parameters then you don't need them on the Garwin. I don't think the UBG-16 is primary though and not sure if EI has a path to make it primary for certain functions. I'd call EI and ask them. It certainly is superior to the analog gauges in terms of accuracy and precision but if not primary you would still need the gauges or another analyzer that is primary. 

You may also want to contact Air Parts of Lock Haven and see how they can help.

http://www.airpartsoflockhaven.com/cluster-gauges

They deal in and repair cluster gauges. It would be more cost effective to repair the cluster so it fulfills the legalities as primary and supplement it with the advisory status of the UBG-16. This is what I've done with my EDM-800 supplementing the analog cluster gauges. I love the 800 and also love the trend depiction in the analog gauges. 

 

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Just something I was thinking about.  On the M20C I'm looking at, the owner mentioned that the CHT and AMPS gauge no longer function, because the sensors were removed when the UBG-16 was installed (this happened long before he owned it).  He's just put INOP stickers on the gauges.  

Is that acceptable?  I seem to find some conflicting information there and I want to make sure it's addressed (Point it out to the mechanic) if they are required to be working.

 

As Peter suggests, I would call EI to confirm but my review of the UBG-16 on their website seems to indicate it is not a primary instrument replacement. The CGR-30P is a primary, as is their MVP-50P. As someone who did remove all of his factory gauges, you can do it, but you need the approved monitor to do so.

[N6758N]

4 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Just something I was thinking about.  On the M20C I'm looking at, the owner mentioned that the CHT and AMPS gauge no longer function, because the sensors were removed when the UBG-16 was installed (this happened long before he owned it).  He's just put INOP stickers on the gauges.  

Is that acceptable?  I seem to find some conflicting information there and I want to make sure it's addressed (Point it out to the mechanic) if they are required to be working.

 

Check in the POH to see if they are required equipment for flight, if not then the inop placard can suffice. 

[ragedracer1977]

The only POH I have access to is the one listed here in downloads. Is that one accurate and legal? If so, I *think* the CHT is required.  Under operating limitations, it says "Engine instrument markings" and Cylinder head temperature is listed with the required markings.

If so, how has it passed annual since the UBG-16 was installed?

The 337 states

"3. The UBG-16 was added as a supplement to the aircraft and not used as a primary instrument. 

4. Removed single EGT and probe."

So, this tells me that at least the CHT gauge needs to functional, correct?

 

[RLCarter]

Correct, it needs the primary CHT to be legal, but the 337 says it has been removed...so I'm not sure how the FSDO approved the install

[gsxrpilot]

Replacing the EI UGP-16 with an Insight G2 would give you an STC'd Primary instrument for CHT, EGT. It would also include full engine logging, fuel flow and carb temp which is nice for a C to have. It's about a $2000 instrument. I'd beat the seller up for the $2000 and tell him you'll eat the installation.

Bottom line, I believe the Pre-buy would say that not having CHT or Amps will be an Airworthy item.

[PTK]

I'd go a step further and have the seller pay for most of the installation as well.

He needs to sell it airworthy, period!

[KSMooniac]

I believe they're required too and the plane has not had rigorous annual inspections since that installation. Might be cheaper for the seller to get them working to be legal, and then never look at them again.

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[Delta]

FAR 91.205 lists all required equipment.  CHT & AMPS meter are not on the list.

[RLCarter]

Just now, Delta said:

FAR 91.205 lists all required equipment.  CHT & AMPS meter are not on the list.

True, but if Mooney has them listed, then it is required

[Vance Harral]

39 minutes ago, Delta said:

FAR 91.205 lists all required equipment.  CHT & AMPS meter are not on the list.

As RLCarter said, 91.205 isn't the only place you have to look.  Either the FAA-Approved "Limitations" section of the POH, or the Type Certificate for an aircraft can specify required equipment beyond that listed in the FARs.  If they do, the listed instrumentation is required to be legally airworthy.

The "1976-78 POH" available for download here has such a Limitations section, which lists the CHT gauge as required equipment (ammeter is not listed).  However, earlier M20C POHs have no such Limitations section.  So I believe the legal requirement depends on the year model of the M20C you're looking at.  You need to get the actual, official POH for that aircraft.  If the CHT gauge is listed as required equipment in an FAA-Approved "Limitations" section, the airplane is not legally airworthy as currently equipped.  As others have said above, the UBG-16 is not certified as a primary gauge replacement.

3 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Correct, it needs the primary CHT to be legal, but the 337 says it has been removed...so I'm not sure how the FSDO approved the install

Post #3 says the EGT probe and gauge was removed, not the CHT probe and gauge.

ragedracer1977, If you need to address this problem, you'll have to install the original CHT probe and connect it to the factory gauge.  Then, assuming you want your UBG-16 to still track the #3 CHT, you'll need to order an EI "piggyback" probe which allows both the factory probe and the EI probe to sit in the thermal well boss of the #3 cylinder.  Agree with others that the seller should pay for this if the CHT gauge is legally required for airworthiness.

[KLRDMD]

1 minute ago, Vance Harral said:

You need to get the actual, official POH for that aircraft.

There is no POH for a 1963 "C" model M money, only an owner's manual.

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

I believe they're required too and the plane has not had rigorous annual inspections since that installation. Might be cheaper for the seller to get them working to be legal, and then never look at them again.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk
 

I'm assuming (you know what they say about that, lol) that they haven't been working since the UBG-16 was installed based on what the seller believes.  I have my doubts about that.  It's entirely possible that they stopped functioning after the last annual and he just assumed or was told by the previous seller that they weren't required.

I spoke to an A&P today and he said the CHT is definitely required.  He wasn't 100% on the ammeter, there might be just a low voltage warning light. The type certificate for a Mooney M20C is under CAR3, and they don't specifically call out an ammeter, he wasn't positive if they type certificate does or not.  

Edit to add:  It DOES have an 'Alternator Out' warning lamp.

Edited May 25, 2017 by ragedracer1977

[ragedracer1977]

Follow up question.  If the seller agrees to drop the price to match what it would cost me to have the G2 installed, is the plane grounded until that happens?  

Or, actually, is it legally grounded now?

Edited May 25, 2017 by ragedracer1977

[Vance Harral]

25 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

There is no POH for a 1963 "C" model M money, only an owner's manual.

Then as far as I know, there is no requirement for such an airplane to have a functioning CHT gauge.  It's not in a POH Limitations section or in the type certificate.

 

25 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I spoke to an A&P today and he said the CHT is definitely required.  He wasn't 100% on the ammeter, there might be just a low voltage warning light. The type certificate for a Mooney M20C is under CAR3, and they don't specifically call out an ammeter, he wasn't positive if they type certificate does or not.  

Here's a link to the M20 type certificate, which is inclusive of all M20 models including the M20C: http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/60107bc8954c93a686256c24005b5075/$FILE/2A3.pdf

Nothing in that type certificate requires a CHT gauge (or ammeter).

It would be interesting to ask the A&P what his basis is for saying the CHT is "definitely required".  You should make sure he's not confusing an early model M20C with a later model M20C which has a POH with a Limitations Section which calls out the CHT as required equipment.

[Vance Harral]

13 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Follow up question.  If the seller agrees to drop the price to match what it would cost me to have the G2 installed, is the plane grounded until that happens?  

Or, actually, is it legally grounded now?

If the airplane lacks a required instrument, it is not airworthy and cannot be legally operated.

But, it's not the responsibility of an A&P to "ground" the airplane.  That's the responsibility (and risk) of the owner/operator.  A mechanic can decline to sign off an annual, but he has no legal authority to prevent operation of the aircraft.  It's essentially the same as an auto mechanic observing that your car lacks required emissions equipment. They can make note of it and/or refuse to work on it, but they can't prevent you from driving it home.

[lamont337]

20 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

Then as far as I know, there is no requirement for such an airplane to have a functioning CHT gauge.  It's not in a POH Limitations section or in the type certificate.

Dig deeper. The required equipment listed on pg. 11 of the TCDS lists an approved flight manual that is required to be on board:

401(a) or (b) or (c) or (d) or (e) or (f) which is further defined on pg. 14.

A full answer as to the gauge being required or not is most likely found within that document for the applicable serial number.

I carry 401(a) in the plane but don't seem to have a digital copy. Maybe I can sneak out to the hangar tomorrow.

I also have a ubg-16 so I'll look into those log entries as well.

 

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, Vance Harral said:

 

Nothing in that type certificate requires a CHT gauge (or ammeter).

It would be interesting to ask the A&P what his basis is for saying the CHT is "definitely required".  You should make sure he's not confusing an early model M20C with a later model M20C which has a POH with a Limitations Section which calls out the CHT as required equipment.

See page 11 of that document, line that says "required equipment".  Says that it requires the basic equipment specified in CAR 3.  CAR 3 specifies that there must be a CHT gauge.  So, it IS definitely required.

[ragedracer1977]

1 hour ago, lamont337 said:

Dig deeper. The required equipment listed on pg. 11 of the TCDS lists an approved flight manual that is required to be on board:

401(a) or (b) or (c) or (d) or (e) or (f) which is further defined on pg. 14.

 

 

A full answer as to the gauge being required or not is most likely found within that document for the applicable serial number.

I carry 401(a) in the plane but don't seem to have a digital copy. Maybe I can sneak out to the hangar tomorrow.

I also have a ubg-16 so I'll look into those log entries as well.

 

Where would you go about getting 401(a) online?  Is it possible?

[carusoam]

Want some PP logic?

Some things to look into... 

1) All M20Cs were essentially created equal.  The last POH for the plane lists the required instruments.  The limitations section includes the CHT with a green arc and a red line. Required equipment is listed for VFR, Night, and IFR flight. Get these lists for your PPI...

2) Early engine monitors may have been installed before some additional sensor types were developed.  Unfortunately most of these digital relics were not certified to be used as primary gauges. A subtle hint is there no green arcs or red lines...

3) Some hangar fairies were unaware of the various piggy back thermocouples that are available today.

4) unknowing owners, inappropriately disconnected the less accurate, challenging to read, analog version.

5) The reason for this CHT challenge are the simple lack of space (or drive) to put two thermocouples in the one available CHT hole.

6) Only recently, electronic engine monitors have been certified to be used as primary instruments...  

7) when shopping for a certified engine monitor, know the functions that can be used as primary.

8) you are buying a used plane from an individual.  You want it to be in airworthy condition.

9) nothing says it has to be in AW condition.

10) A simple thermometer on the cylinder isn't working.  To be in AW condition, the direct route is fix the thermometer...

11) having the seller pay for the buyer to have a luxurious thermometer will probably lead to being tossed from the negotiating table.

12) the seller has advised you of the broken gauges and the price he wants to sell it for with the gauges in that condition.  Makes it hard to negotiate on that particular item.  If they were working, he would have raised the price.  If you found them at the PPI and he hadn't mentioned them to you... that is a reason for negotiations... 

Most people looking for a successful negotiation on a used plane put together a sales agreement with the seller.  This includes what you want to have, and how much you are going to pay, all verified by something like a PPI.

 

A PPI is a semi-official route to knowing what is airworthy about the plane and what is not.  

Get the seller to agree to this is the first steps to negotiation.  Telling him that he has to include a multi-amu instrument could be a little risky to your negotiation.

It seems this discussion got started with a few details and missed the point of really expensive things that often get found at the PPI. 

Remember, the seller can always say he doesn't want to sell any longer.  If he agrees to adding expensive things, the feeling of something bad is hiding in there somewhere.

Planes are selling all over the place lately. Including some that are not able to pass the basic AW tests.

I have read a couple of sob stories lately about how somebody bought a plane without getting a PPI.  Even with a PPI, an old plane has some expensive risks involved.

Maybe I just missed something.  I have the ability to do that at least once per day....

Your first expense is going to be your best expense... spend it on the PPI...

To become a bit more knowledgeable on buying a used plane, the search function will be full up of details of what worked for some and didn't work for others...

Do your best to avoid the unknown expenses early on.  Like before you own the plane.

Raged, I like you. I just don't want to see you look after you leap...  

PP thoughts only. Not a mechanic. (I used to buy/sell new and used machinery)

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited May 25, 2017 by carusoam

[ragedracer1977]

41 minutes ago, carusoam said:

.

9) nothing says it has to be in AW condition.

 

 

I'll stop you right there...  The purchase contract we signed most assuredly states that the plane MUST be in airworthy condition.  If it is not, there are 2 options.

1.  Seller pays to have item corrected.

2.  Seller decides not to have item repaired. Refunds deposit and any cost associated with pre-purchase inspection.

Seller did advise that they were not working, but neither of us knew at the time that those gauges not working rendered the aircraft not airworthy. This would be no different than the seller telling me there was some bad paint, we agreed there was bad paint, and it turned out the bad paint was bad because of unseen corrosion of the wing spar.  Albeit a lot cheaper to repair....

Edited May 25, 2017 by ragedracer1977

[carusoam]

Purchase contract is step one.  You got it.

Are you having a pre-purchase inspection done?  Hire the experts, for important things that you don't want to take on...

Said it before.  I probably missed something...

My memory isn't strong enough to remember so much detail over so long a period of time...

When I bought my last plane AW was the basis, but I also included that everything had to work as expected. I used the sales ad as the basis.  If they listed a Nav/com I tested it to see it work. The plane was all of 15 years old. It had a lot of detail in the sales ad.

Anything that wasn't working as expected was agreed to set right.  Of course the establishment I bought the plane from was willing to upgrade certain things for a price...

When buying machines far away, I want to finish these kind of things in one day. Fix now, agree that somebody near me will fix it, or just adjust the price.  The objective is to take the plane that has passed the PPI home.  The longer the negotiations go on, the chance of failure to close gets too large.

I want the previous owner to to answer my follow-up questions over the next couple of weeks.  Not answering my call over a couple hundred bucks isn't worth it.  I want everything the PO has to offer, books, papers, POH, logs.... anything related to the plane or its operations.

My first plane came with nothing but the logs... no POh, no owner's manual... no tow-bar...???

Best regards,

-a-

[ragedracer1977]

Yes, a PPI is happening.  We went through everything together.  Flew the plane.  Etc.  Everything that's supposed to be working, is working (that my non-expert eye can see!) except for those 2 gauges.

[carusoam]

Spar Corrosion, fuel tank leaks, and engines worn/broken/corrosion, are the multi AMU challenge... serial numbers matching the logs are important for recognizing stolen property and log integrity...

CHT and amp gauge, in the automotive world are a hundred bucks each.  Somebody mentioned earlier where to get these things OH'd. There are ways to buy new replacements as well...

The CHT is definitely an AW issue you will want in place.  I did not see the amp gauge in the required list.  I like the alternator, Zeftronics voltage regulator with LED indicators for problems, and Concorde battery. If it has all that already next steps are to add a modern engine analyzer of your choice. There are three manufacturers that do this currently. All are good, one costs less than the others... check for used ones for sale...  decide if you want the expensive monitor to be primary, or the lower cost ones to have all the data available, but not primary...

Who is doing your PPI and what is he using as a checklist? His own, a mooney 100hr inspection list, or a full Mooney annual list.

Some PPIs are done for a few hundred bucks. Others cost a few thousand bucks. It is up to the owner to decide what is best for his wallet, lower risk/higher cost or higher risk/lower short term cost.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 25, 2017 by carusoam