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Oxygen leak dilemma


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Here is an issue that has me perplexed about a factory O2 system leak at the outlet assembly. I need some of your brain power.

A new (to me) 2007 Acclaim with factory O2. The previous (original) owner never used the O2 system. The main tank holds O2 just fine. There is no leak in the system whether turned on or off as long as there are no devices plugged in to the cabin outlet assembly located in the headliner. The leak is easily heard and felt around the outside of the Scott connector when inserted into the assembly. Once the Scott connector is removed the leak immediately stops. This leaking occurs identically at all 4 stations using 5 different Scott connectors fully seated with-in the assembly.

Could all 4 ports be bad at once? Could the regulator be bad and over pressurizing the cabin side (I believe it is an alt adjusting regulator)?

any ideas?

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1 hour ago, L. Trotter said:

Here is an issue that has me perplexed about a factory O2 system leak at the outlet assembly. I need some of your brain power.

A new (to me) 2007 Acclaim with factory O2. The previous (original) owner never used the O2 system. The main tank holds O2 just fine. There is no leak in the system whether turned on or off as long as there are no devices plugged in to the cabin outlet assembly located in the headliner. The leak is easily heard and felt around the outside of the Scott connector when inserted into the assembly. Once the Scott connector is removed the leak immediately stops. This leaking occurs identically at all 4 stations using 5 different Scott connectors fully seated with-in the assembly.

Could all 4 ports be bad at once? Could the regulator be bad and over pressurizing the cabin side (I believe it is an alt adjusting regulator)?

any ideas?

I am not familiar with the setup and it would be helpful to see a picture of the connection point. With your description of the problem, it makes me wonder if the Scott connectors provided to you with the plane are the correct ones. If the previous owner didn't use the system, is it possible he lost the connectors and obtain an incorrect replacement set? It is unusual to see leaks as you described at each port. 

As for the regulatory being bad, these fittings should hold more pressure than the max indicated. There is a safety margin.

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Lee I have been fighting O2 leaks for almost a year since the tank was removed in Longview Tx for work. When I got back to Wilmington De the tank went from 1200to 500psi. It was at Weber's for a few visits to fix it, oops. It's still leaked slowly, at least the major leak was fixed. Well I bought a bottle of blue gas leak check stiff and started to spray the fittings,as an accountant I figured air passes through pipes and can not escape unless theres a hole ok. Anyway a fitting in the coiled tube showed a big bubble wow, got my trusty wrench it was loose, tightened it, leak gone. The sad part is after three visits to an MSC it took a mechanical misfit to fix it. Anyway try to check every place air could escape and I'll bet you find your leak, by the way I have less than a half hour in finding the leak I got lucky and it was one of the first I checked.

 

Good luck    Dan

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Lee I re-read your post and you said you checked all the places in the system.  I would check with Scott it's most likely in the attachment point, my manual is at the hanger, I'll check later today to see if there is a schematic of the system, try the spray all around the attachment point to reveal if its in fact there.

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14 minutes ago, Danb said:

Lee I have been fighting O2 leaks for almost a year since the tank was removed in Longview Tx for work. When I got back to Wilmington De the tank went from 1200to 500psi. It was at Weber's for a few visits to fix it, oops. It's still leaked slowly, at least the major leak was fixed. Well I bought a bottle of blue gas leak check stiff and started to spray the fittings,as an accountant I figured air passes through pipes and can not escape unless theres a hole ok. Anyway a fitting in the coiled tube showed a big bubble wow, got my trusty wrench it was loose, tightened it, leak gone. The sad part is after three visits to an MSC it took a mechanical misfit to fix it. Anyway try to check every place air could escape and I'll bet you find your leak, by the way I have less than a half hour in finding the leak I got lucky and it was one of the first I checked.

 

Good luck    Dan

What was the name of the blue gas leak check stuff?  Thanks

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I did not read the initial post very closely but here is why my tank leaked (99 Bravo).  When you use O2 you turn the knob in the cabin to on position.  When you get done you must turn the knob to the off position.  The shutoff valve at the bottle is controlled by the knob in the cockpit.  The cable joining the two sticks a little so when you turn the knob to off you must hold the knob for several seconds to make sure the knob does not snap back a few degrees of rotation.  If it does the valve on bottle will not close tight.  If you are leaving the knob on all the time all your O2 will leak out as the O2 ports in the ceiling will not hold a seal that well.  Always use the Off/On knob.  And make sure it is completely off when you are finished using the O2.

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Kal-Blue gas leak check. I know you tried a few different connectors but it does not make sense that the correct one would be leaking. Do you know anybody with the same connectors as you have then try them in each plane. I spoke with my mechanic a couple minutes ago and he said there is a possibility that  if the connector is correct then the pressure you applied to the fitting may have moved the tubing slightly causing a leak there, but you said you could hear the leak which leads one to believe the connector fitting is bad. At least you have it down to the fittings in the ceiling. 

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Summary:

1) There are all kinds of reasons for an O2 leak... the remote location of the valve and distant control in the cabin.  Lots of hardware and connections in between...

2) This one has something to do between the plane and the final connection to the passengers.

3) Often there are different connectors from one system that don't match a different system.

4) It seems that inserting without twisting can be a challenge.

5) If your O2 connector has two pins, expect to push in and twist to engage the pins.

6) One of the cool things about transition training is to get all these quirky bits of knowledge up front when you acquire the plane.

7) Don't use any lubricants in the event it seems like a good idea. Oils and greases can auto-ignite in a high O2 environment.

8) Posting a picture of the connectors, male and female, can probably find the answer pretty quickly.

 

Some PP ideas I have learned at MS. I don't have an O2 system...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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 The Scott connector on the right ( light green) is brand-new from Precise Flight. The Scott connector on the left ( with clear tubing attached )is the one that presumably came from the factory.  The internal diameter is a little narrower on the Precise Flight but the outer diameter is identical on each.  The connectors match up perfectly with the outlet assembly. They push in a small distance and with a quarter turn lock securely.  Oxygen does go through the connector properly but there is a far greater leak around the connector. 

 

IMG_0010.JPG

IMG_0011.JPG

IMG_0016.JPG

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The simple change of colors provides for a challenging visual comparison...

Next step: What does the thing look like in the cabin where these plug in? Is there a piece of rubber like an o-ring or is it a metal to metal seal?

I would be expecting a piece of rubber might have had some age issues with the high O2 environment. Oxidized and rough rubber may be a bit leaky.  Or if there is supposed to be a rubber o-ring, and there isn't...

Best regards,

-a-

 

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it seems I will be pulling the port assembly out and replacing with new. Apparently these are closed units and not serviceable.Maybe some one pushed something in to the assembly damaging each. I will update on the findings. I just find it so odd that all 4 are "bad" with identical findings at each station. what are the odds? 

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Call Dan at Lasar.  He is THE parts guru.  He has answers for almost every Mooney part related question.

Jimmy and David at AAA were stocking up O2 system parts for potential clients.  They could be pretty helpful as well...

If you use an MSC, that would be a great question for them to help you with.

 

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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I still think it is a mis-match between the plug-ins and the ports. I just can't believe that all 4 ports or all your plug-ins would go bad at once. If you could figure out which plug-ins match your ports, it would be a lot easier and probably cheaper to replace those than the ports.

Have you called and asked Aerox or other O2 parts supplier. They may some insight.

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On 5/24/2017 at 11:52 AM, DonMuncy said:

I still think it is a mis-match between the plug-ins and the ports. I just can't believe that all 4 ports or all your plug-ins would go bad at once. If you could figure out which plug-ins match your ports, it would be a lot easier and probably cheaper to replace those than the ports.

Have you called and asked Aerox or other O2 parts supplier. They may some insight.

Don you were exactly right!!

I obtained new Scott connectors (I had a difficult time believing all 4 oxygen ports went bad). There is no leak!!!! looking at the connectors I can not see any external difference to the ones that don't work. Obviously there is a difference, but it must be imperceptibly small. So, the take home lesson...There are different Scott oxygen connectors that look the same to the "naked" eye (small strait tube with 2 small pins at the end) but have internal and/or imperceptible size differences that render the wrong one non-functional. You cant just look at the connector to see if it is the proper one.

Thank you all for the in put and help.

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Great. So good to find a solution at small cost. Do you have the capability to do precise measurements to determine the differences. This may be extremely helpful to the next guy who stumbles into the problem.

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3 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

Great. So good to find a solution at small cost. Do you have the capability to do precise measurements to determine the differences. This may be extremely helpful to the next guy who stumbles into the problem.

Sorry, I do not have equipment to measure microns. I suspect some one else will eventually have a similar problem. The sad thing is the connectors don't even have a part number on them that is visible to identify one from another. I have no idea where the bad connectors came from. The ones that work are from Precise Flight ( Bend,OR ). 

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Neither of those green adapters look like original equipment - I believe they should be these (and as per the POH, with a green band)Capture.JPG.579b5e2bbaa7c15c6a6c236a65cc7191.JPG

If you are using an "Oxysaver" or similar cannula, then you will need their adapter with a flow meter and flow control

 

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