chrixxer Posted May 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 7 minutes ago, MB65E said: Sounds like standard old airplane stuff to me. ASI can not be marked as INOP -Matt Typo. VSI. Sorry! (The VSI is, AFAIK, never required, for IFR or VFR flight, in a Mooney M20E. That said, it will get fixed.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted May 24, 2017 Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 1 hour ago, chrixxer said: Yeah, I've gotten to be pretty good at no-flap landings (though I've only ever done one once before - on my checkride! - in a Cherokee 140). I've often come in with less than full flaps (crosswind, gusts, etc) though. My boss (several thousand hour ATP with ~10 years in a J) was convinced I wouldn't be able to make it into SMO (5,000' runway) without flaps in a Mooney, and I'd been initially picking airports with 7,000+ foot runways just to be safe (though I'd had no issues, under pressure, at KIOB), but I never used more than ~2-3,000', so I knew I'd be fine. (Remember, I had all of ~10 hours in any Mooney before this. Low time in the make and model, new-to-me plane, and no flaps - I was cautious.) Still, I like to fly to places like Catalina (AVX) and Santa Ynez (IZA), and the flaps should work. They're on the list for "ASAP attention." I'll probably fly her out to Chino to get that work done quickly. Even in my initial transition training in rough air on a 6,000 feet strip I never was unable to exit the runway at midfield. I now go in and out of a wavy, 4,000 feet runway and always turn off at midfield with no problem with no flap landings. I don't consider myself a high time Mooney pilot either. My old school instructor that started me landing the Mooney with no flaps is a tough instructor that doesn't put up with much. He taught me to fly in an Aeronca Champ in 1991. He put me through so much stuff that I have had no other instructor even mention to the point of requiring me to spin before he would sign me off for the checkride. He taught stalls from a climbing turn, spiral down to the end of the runway with the prop stopped and on and on. I probably did a hundred simulated engine outs for him. Where I am going with this is, if he is good with no flap landings, I am all in. I would follow him into hell. I am not normally argumentative. I am quite sure that there are many of you that are highly experienced, highly skilled Mooney pilots that can build an airtight case for requiring full flap landings. Please don't be insulted when I follow Good ol' Bill instead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N6758N Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 3 hours ago, chrixxer said: RG-35A (according to Concorde's paperwork)? Looks like that's something I can do myself? (https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-archive/aircraft-ownership/preventive-maintenance) Yes, this counts as owner maintenance. Make sure you check to see if there is a weight difference between what is currently installed and the concorde, if it is over 1lb you will need an A&P sign off for the weight and balance change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) No flap landings are easier to control than full flap landings... yay! Full flap landings take more finesse to accomplish, which requires gaining experience... yay! Know that the stall speed of the plane increases significantly with no flaps compared to full flaps... Know the stall speed of the plane in a 30° bank in the traffic pattern... Know what happens when the plane increases the bank of the turn while the pilot isn't paying attention to it... Know what happens with X-winds and final approach overshoot/corrections... (classic set-up for stall/spin on final approach) Know what happens when the AOAi guru hears a phrase like 'my landings are so smooth because I don't use flaps' know what happens when energy doesn't get adsorbed by the flaps prior to landing. Chances of bounces increases, know a plan B for this... I bet using T/O flaps is equally easy to get a squeaker as a no flap landing is, and it has improvements to safety in the pattern. Maybe I missed something in the discussion... Maybe I just wanted to regurgitate the safety aspects that are important prior to the landing... Maybe I used to do something similar with my C, that I wouldn't think of doing today... Are you landing on a 7,000' runway with a straight in approach? That would be cool... If you really want squeaker landings and safety attributes of full flaps... check in with 201er and see his videos... each one is a squeaker... he uses the AOAi to monitor and control the energy that the plane has all the way to the ground. Did ol' Bill say don't do nothin' stupid too? This is a PP list of things to consider regarding the traffic pattern and use of flaps. It is for the purpose of discussion, I am not a CFI. Best regrads, -a- Edited May 25, 2017 by carusoam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 Thanks folks! As I said, I feel comfortable with no flap landings. As time goes along, I will accumulate plenty of flap landings and there may very well be a time when I prefer them. I am not opposed to change, and I constantly try and learn different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donkaye Posted May 25, 2017 Report Share Posted May 25, 2017 19 hours ago, MBDiagMan said: Where I am going with this is, if he is good with no flap landings, I am all in. I would follow him into hell. I am not normally argumentative. I am quite sure that there are many of you that are highly experienced, highly skilled Mooney pilots that can build an airtight case for requiring full flap landings. Please don't be insulted when I follow Good ol' Bill instead. Sometimes it might be worth listening to even more experienced Mooney instructors. Practice makes perfect using full flaps. The C Model can be landed in distances comparable to a Cessna 150 if you use full flaps. The approach sight picture is much clearer when using full flaps. Full flaps makes the transition to the landing attitude while continuing to view the runway much easier leading to a "rolled on landing" without even a "chirp". It's possible that sometimes you don't know what you don't know even while doing what you think you know. So, as a 23 year instructor with nearly 6,000 hours of instructing time mostly in Mooneys and about 11,000 hours total GA time, I recommend landing with full flaps except in gusty winds and strong crosswinds where the crab angle is greater than 15° with full flaps. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 26, 2017 Report Share Posted May 26, 2017 Thanks for sharing the wisdom, Don! Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBDiagMan Posted May 26, 2017 Report Share Posted May 26, 2017 Yes, thanks for sharing your expertise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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