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I have used AvBlend for both my Mooneys, first the J and now the Ovation. This was based on the Jerry Matheny's (sp?) advice at one of the Mooney Maintenance seminars. I had also used the Aviation Consumer article as guidance.  While I have always had good oil sample analyses (on both engines) and usually try to fly often enough to avoid rust, I realize that by itself doesn't mean much...there's no control group to compare against.  I guess what it does prove is that AvBlend hasn't hurt me any.  So even if it's just piece of mind, that may be worth it.

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How would ever know if this stuff does any good?

it is easy to say "I've used Avblend and my engine made it to TBO", which is great, but you will never know if it would have made it just as well without it. I think flying often is way more important than what oil or additives you use.

It is just like people who have BMWs who always put premium gas in their cars because they deserve it. You will never know the difference driving to work or the grocery store unless you drive like a teenage boy! (I'm going to hear about this one!) 

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2 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

How would ever know if this stuff does any good?

it is easy to say "I've used Avblend and my engine made it to TBO", which is great, but you will never know if it would have made it just as well without it. I think flying often is way more important than what oil or additives you use.

Couldn't agree more.

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47 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

How would ever know if this stuff does any good?

it is easy to say "I've used Avblend and my engine made it to TBO", which is great, but you will never know if it would have made it just as well without it. I think flying often is way more important than what oil or additives you use.

It is just like people who have BMWs who always put premium gas in their cars because they deserve it. You will never know the difference driving to work or the grocery store unless you drive like a teenage boy! (I'm going to hear about this one!) 

Last month I sold my Subaru WRX Sti turbo that recommended premium fuel.  I used 87 octane in that thing for the 17 years I owned it and never an engine problem.  Corrosion on the frame, the brake system, etc, all sort of piled up and I got bored during the pandemic and traded it in.  But I can say - I saved a few bucks on fuel during 17 years and never suffered from it.

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18 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Last month I sold my Subaru WRX Sti turbo that recommended premium fuel.  I used 87 octane in that thing for the 17 years I owned it and never an engine problem.  Corrosion on the frame, the brake system, etc, all sort of piled up and I got bored during the pandemic and traded it in.  But I can say - I saved a few bucks on fuel during 17 years and never suffered from it.

it all depends on the engine. Took my Jaguar V12 to a full-service station once, asked for High Test and went inside. The fill up was too cheap--they put in 89 instead of 92 octane. The car knocked badly on the coastal Carolina flatlands, all 6 miles to the auto parts store for Outlaw Octane boost, then about 15 more miles into the Sandhills before it smoothed back out. The Owners Manual, the gas gauge and the inside of the fuel door all say "PREMIUM UNLEADED FUEL ONLY". Seems to work . . . . and lower octane doesn't.

I use no additives in my Mooney, just straight Aeroshell.

Edited by Hank
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1 minute ago, Hank said:

it all depends on the engine. Took my Jaguar V12 to a full-service station once, asked for High Test and went inside. The fill up was too cheap--they put in 89 instead of 92 octane. The car knocked badly on the coastal Carolina flatlands, all 6 miles to the auto parts store for Outlaw Octane boost, then about 15 more miles into the Sandhills before it smoothed back out. The Owners Manual, the gas gauge and the inside of the fuel door all say "PREMIUM UNLEADED FUEL ONLY". Seems to work . . . . and lower octane doesn't.

I use no additives in my Mooney, just straight Aeroshell.

I hear ya.

I didn't just go renegade - the owners manual recommended 91 octane but the online forum folks were saying left and right it didn't matter and they had no ill consequences.  So I tried it ...and never looked back.

I use camguard in the airplane.  And 100LL.

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49 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Last month I sold my Subaru WRX Sti turbo that recommended premium fuel.  I used 87 octane in that thing for the 17 years I owned it and never an engine problem.  Corrosion on the frame, the brake system, etc, all sort of piled up and I got bored during the pandemic and traded it in.  But I can say - I saved a few bucks on fuel during 17 years and never suffered from it.

You are too old for one of those! :) Fast and Furious!

All cars made in the last 30 years have simi-closed loop fuel injection computers that will accommodate just about any fuel you put into it. If you put higher octane fuel in the car it will make slightly more power, but you would never notice it unless you were racing, or pretending to race anyway.

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40 minutes ago, Hank said:

it all depends on the engine. Took my Jaguar V12 to a full-service station once, asked for High Test and went inside. The fill up was too cheap--they put in 89 instead of 92 octane. The car knocked badly on the coastal Carolina flatlands, all 6 miles to the auto parts store for Outlaw Octane boost, then about 15 more miles into the Sandhills before it smoothed back out. The Owners Manual, the gas gauge and the inside of the fuel door all say "PREMIUM UNLEADED FUEL ONLY". Seems to work . . . . and lower octane doesn't.

I use no additives in my Mooney, just straight Aeroshell.

What year is your JAG?

If it is a classic, it definitely matters. Especially if it has carbs or a mechanical fuel injection system.

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Avblend is mineral oil. The same stuff that’s in engine oil. The CAS (Chemical Abstracts Service) no. is 8042-47-5 which is mineral oil. Difference is it costs about 43$ per quart! That is some expensive mineral oil to put in my engine! It’s more than 8 times what my Aeroshell 15W50 costs! If I wanted a 4% increase by volume in mineral oil in my engine I could drop some more Aeroshell in it! But why?

 

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11 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You are too old for one of those! :) Fast and Furious!

All cars made in the last 30 years have simi-closed loop fuel injection computers that will accommodate just about any fuel you put into it. If you put higher octane fuel in the car it will make slightly more power, but you would never notice it unless you were racing, or pretending to race anyway.

...but I used to be younger!

I was younger 17 years ago when I "got it".  Actually I got it from my dad who bought it new just under a year before he passed away and I inherited it and I kept it as a memory I had with him going to look at it.  So he was too old for it!

But yeah - actually I knew what you said, which is the engine wouldn't knock with the lower octane, it would just electronically compensate and be slightly slower. But not noticeably so in any real way since it was always kick butt fast.  Maybe certainly on a timed 0-60 test, a few tenths.

So how old am I?  Well I replaced it with a Subaru Crosstrek.  Good basic car.  Fits my needs to put my bike inside it and my skis in the winter.

My airplane is my hot rod now.  I don't seem to crave a hot rod car anymore.

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2 hours ago, PTK said:

Avblend is mineral oil. The CAS no (Chemical Abstracts Service) no. is 8042-47-5 which is mineral oil. It costs about 43$ per quart! That’s more than 8 times what my Aeroshell 15W50 costs! 
 

Here, you can get a quart of AVBLEND for $10

https://www.ebay.com/i/152363247996?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=152363247996&targetid=4581046486094194&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=395665087&mkgroupid=1239149814203389&rlsatarget=pla-4581046486094194&abcId=1129776&merchantid=51291&msclkid=638281a17ee61b53d7e0df743b18b447

 

Even though AvBlend's SDS says it is 99% mineral oil, I have to imagine that the magic is in the last 1% and not in the mineral oil.....

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5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I have to imagine that the magic is in the last 1% and not in the mineral oil.....

1% of 12oz of magic in 8 quarts of oil is 0.0000047 oz. Actually less than that because it’s >99% mineral oil so <1% magic. That is some powerful magic that deserves some equally powerful imagination! :D

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8 minutes ago, PTK said:

1% of 12oz of magic in 8 quarts of oil is 0.00046 oz. Actually less than that because it’s >99% mineral oil so <1% magic. That is some powerful magic! :D

If Avblend is 99% mineral oil and 1% magic, then there are 0.32 oz per quart of magic. 8 quarts is 256 oz + 12 oz Avblend (containing 0.12 oz magic), or 0.12 ÷ (256 + 12) = 0.000448 = 0.045%. But it still ain't very much.

Most folks here fly with 6 quartz of oil not 8, which raises it to 0.059%.

Then again, how much is 10mg of painkiller in my 200-lb body? A whole lot less, but fairly effective the last time someone was drilling in my mouth. But I really didn't read the numbers on the syringe, it could have been 2-3mg. [NOTE:  200 lb = 90,718g; 10 mg = 0.01g, or 0.000011%, but it kept my mouth from hurting.]

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In people the only outcome from taking multivitamins and minerals is to create expensive urine. In our airplanes the only outcome of additives is to create expensive oil in the drain bucket. 
The only difference is the name: in humans we call them “supplements” and in our engines we call them “additives”! :D

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1 hour ago, PTK said:

1% of 12oz of magic in 8 quarts of oil is 0.0000047 oz. Actually less than that because it’s >99% mineral oil so <1% magic. That is some powerful magic that deserves some equally powerful imagination! :D

Similar magic to adding fluoride to water and tooth paste to reduce tooth decay.  Magic but it does seem to work.

Clarence

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15 minutes ago, airtim said:

What engines do people only run 6 instead of 8?

Mine for one. I put in 7 qts and a new filter, it doesn't reach 5-1/2 until about 15 hours. If I put in 8 qts, it will drop to 5-1/2 in about 15 hours. The first quart-and-a-half disappears really fast . . . .

Oh, M20-C with O-360. Pushing 900 SMOH.

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2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Similar magic to adding fluoride to water and tooth paste to reduce tooth decay.  Magic but it does seem to work.

Clarence

Ah, yes.  Fluoridated water.  That's why I only drink rainwater and pure grain alcohol.  You gotta love "Dr. Strangelove"!

 

IMG_2393.JPG

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Let’s see...

We have combo of high tech engines and pharma technology...

1) mgs count... all the extra fluff in the tablet is just a means to carry the important mgs ....
Some of the additives improve solubility, build the structure, and a coating that allows the acid sensitive chemistry to reach beyond the stomach....  (Enough on pharma technology)

2) If the mgs of chemistry are helpful, use as directed...

3) High octane requirements are based on Overall compression ratio... 

4) TC’d engines include the CR of the piston and the compression of the air from the TC...
 

5) Flogging a 10:1 CR engine like a teenager on a budget... using something less than the recommended Octane.... usually gets the owner a subtle hint things are working correctly...

6) The knock lets itself be known with a subtle Audible rattle up front... And a lack of power being generated to match... usually happens as the throttle gets pushed in... or an over square situation is set up... low rpm, high gear...

7) The knock sensor takes in the rattle and immediately adjusts the timing to match... Just when you were thinking...‘I should of bought the high test...’  :)

8) So... if you don’t flog the Chevy 350... getting away with the lower octane is pretty easy...

9) If the firebird had two fuel tanks... Left would be low octane, and right would be high... flip the valve, before initiating T/O...

10) I’m not a big fan of using additives without demonstrable proof... the car industry likes this marketing wizardry...

11) Most MSers are flying a few times per month... rust isn’t going to be the problem...

12) If you only fly once a month... that can leave several weeks without driving moisture out and spreading oil around... suddenly oil additives seem to make more sense... :)
 

PP thoughts only, too bad the As blend guys don’t want us to know What the important additives/mgs are...

Best regards,

-a-

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5 hours ago, carusoam said:

. . . too bad the As blend guys don’t want us to know What the important additives/mgs are...

For the same reason that Dr. Carter never said what was in his liver pills. Knowing what's in it makes it possible to run tests and collect data; they'd rather sell based on feelings and belief. Must not be much real data to support the claims . . . . or they would brag on ingredients and wave the data around.

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18 hours ago, PTK said:

Avblend is mineral oil. The same stuff that’s in engine oil. The CAS (Chemical Abstracts Service) no. is 8042-47-5 which is mineral oil. Difference is it costs about 43$ per quart! That is some expensive mineral oil to put in my engine! It’s more than 8 times what my Aeroshell 15W50 costs! If I wanted a 4% increase by volume in mineral oil in my engine I could drop some more Aeroshell in it! But why?

 

Just a little clarification on CAS numbers. For well-defined chemical substances like acetone the CAS number is unique and specific. For things like hydrocarbon mixtures the CAS numbers are less specific. There are multiple CAS numbers for things that could be described as mineral oils. The descriptions for these usually involve ranges of hydrocarbon lengths and the processes used to create the specific fraction. The mineral oil in Avblend is likely to be a different mix of hydrocarbons than what you would find in your regular Aeroshell. The other issue is that while CAS maintains the list of numbers it is up to the individual manufacturer to determine which number(s) is applicable to their product and they are not always consistent.

I'm not saying there's necessarily anything special about Avblend but based on the CAS number they used it is likely a lighter fraction of hydrocarbons than what you have in your regular oil.

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2 hours ago, Hank said:

 Must not be much real data to support the claims . . . . or they would brag on ingredients and wave the data around.

Except that there is real data to support some of those claims.

On page 1 of this thread (posted on May 21, 2017), I included the Aviation Consumer article that talked about corrosion testing for different oils and additives.  AVBLEND tested comparably to Camguard, and actually showed identical performance in anti-corrosion.

Aviation Consumer does not take advertising money and is probably the most independent and unbiased reviewer of aviation products available to us as consumers.

I'm not trying to convince anybody one way or another, but neither will I belittle anyone out there for their preferences, snake oil or not.  (I'm not implying that Hank was doing that, I simply quoted his post to reference the test data.)

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7 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Except that there is real data to support some of those claims.

I have not seen any “real” data from independent sources nor studies published in any journal that verifies their claims. Nothing beyond what they say in their ads. They also were sued for deceptive advertising and had to settle a 1 mil $ lawsuit. 

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