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Hearing protection plus headset


milotron

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9 hours ago, flight2000 said:

Did you get the full amount for them and how long did it take to sell them?  The last three sets that have gone up on BeechTalk lasted less than 30 minutes before being sold.  One pair sold in 6 minutes....:o

Absolutely understand they aren't for everyone though.

One other benefit, I get a little more clearance from the ceiling... :rolleyes:

I didn't quite get the full amount, but I think I sold them in a day or two for $20 or so less than new over on toilet bowl of america. Er, I mean pilots.

It's a weird thing but I like the mic boom on the right, not the left. I have for 20+ years. The halo can't accommodate that. I also couldn't ever get the thing bent around just right to get the mic to where ATC could hear me clearly, and getting the ear plugs in just right always took a lot of fiddling. There was some issue getting the volume set right I couldn't ever work out, I think that was me, not the headset. Phil is super nice and helpful.

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People would do the earplugs plus back when I was on the pistol team.  I tried it once or twice.   I did not like to be inside my head that much.  You can hear your heartbeat and breathing.  Try it with some foam ones.   You should still be able to hear people talk.

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I used to wear foam earplugs under my helmet in the Air Force.  It was very effective.  One time I was leading a four ship out to the area in Thailand and one of the guys asked if we could switch frequencies.  Apparently there was a LOT of static on the freq and I couldn't hear it because of the earplugs.  All I heard was crisp clear talking.

However, I did not wear them at the airlines and I have not tried them in the Mooney, although I might now that you brought it up.

As for type of plugs, in the Air Force we recommended the foam plugs that you roll between your fingers, insert into your ears, and then hold then there for a few seconds while the expand and seat themselves.  We did NOT recommend the rubber plugs.  The reason was that as you climb, air between the plug and the eardrum will expand and escape.  When you descend, the higher pressure outside the ear may push the plugs deeper into the ear canal.  If you have the type Pilato recommended you will most likely be able to pull them out by the strings as long as the string doesn't become detached.  However, with just the little finger tab, we have had to find needle nose pliers to reach in and grab them.  The foam plugs allow air to pass both ways.

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+1 for Halo.

Prior to the Halo I used foam plugs (seated deeply in the ear canal) under a non-ANR DC headset.  As best I can tell, the plugs+headset may have offered a little better noise reduction than the Halos, though I have no intention of trying anything after the Halos (except for a wireless version if/when available).  

Note that using tinnitus as a measure of the effectiveness of the hearing protection used can be problematic as ambient/inner ear pressure changes can increase the tinnitus independent of the noise exposure.

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2 hours ago, Yetti said:

People would do the earplugs plus back when I was on the pistol team.  I tried it once or twice.   I did not like to be inside my head that much.  You can hear your heartbeat and breathing.  Try it with some foam ones.   You should still be able to hear people talk.

Different in a plane, the ambient noise is such you can't hear yourself as easily.

I wear foam plugs under my electric muffs for shooting.

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3 hours ago, Yetti said:

People would do the earplugs plus back when I was on the pistol team.  I tried it once or twice.   I did not like to be inside my head that much.  You can hear your heartbeat and breathing.  Try it with some foam ones.   You should still be able to hear people talk.

I completely agree.  I did quite a bit of shotgun target shooting in the 90's and hearing protection was a concern.  One of the issues with plugs alone is that hearing damage can continue to occur because of sound induction through the bone behind the ear.  I used foam plugs quite a bit, but the problem with them was that I couldn't hear anything, it was difficult to hear normal conversation and the clicking of the trap machine releasing a target was inaudible - and they were not complete hearing protection.  I liked muffs better because the hearing protection was better, but they weren't perfect either.  The two together was too much, could not hear anything.  I use A20's.  They are really good.  I have a 231, and the Bose certainly tames down the engine noise.  Makes it much easier to talk on the radio.  Are you sure your noise cancellation is working, because it doesn't make sense to me that engine noise would be that loud.

Edited by jlunseth
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Do we have any engineers on this board who are familiar with the science behind ENC?

(I'm more or less completely ignorant on the topic.)

I've always wondered whether correct operation of ENC depends on a specific volume of air between the speaker and the ear drum, and whether having ear plugs in that space would negatively impact the ENC magic.

Like everyone, I want maximum hearing protection, but I've always kind of assumed that the engineers behind these products have made assumptions about how pilots will use them, and I worry that ENC will be less effective if used in a different way.

E.g., I worry that wearing foam ear plugs under a Bose headset might add some passive noise reduction, but reduce some of the active.

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Waves and anti waves....

the sound cancelling uses a microphone to 'hear' sounds in the cabin and an emitter adjusts to what it hears, to produce sound waves out of sync.

its a bit complex, you would probably need to try it to see what happens...

It is possible to generate some strange side effects by leaning the ear cups on various things in the cabin while wearing them.  Not usually a problem for the pilot though... :) 

if the foam ear plug were to touch the parts inside the ear cup, some oddities could  occur.

PP thoughts only. The biggest drawback of active noise cancelling is the price paid....

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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44 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

I completely agree.  I did quite a bit of shotgun target shooting in the 90's and hearing protection was a concern.  One of the issues with plugs alone is that hearing damage can continue to occur because of sound induction through the bone behind the ear.  I used foam plugs quite a bit, but the problem with them was that I couldn't hear anything, it was difficult to hear normal conversation and the clicking of the trap machine releasing a target was inaudible - and they were not complete hearing protection.  I liked muffs better because the hearing protection was better, but they weren't perfect either.  The two together was too much, could not hear anything.  I use A20's.  They are really good.  I have a 231, and the Bose certainly tames down the engine noise.  Makes it much easier to talk on the radio.  Are you sure your noise cancellation is working, because it doesn't make sense to me that engine noise would be that loud.

As ANR works by creating sounds that are 180 degrees out of phase with the source noise, thus cancelling it out for a net result of something close to zero audible noise. I am not certain that the issues I am having are the result of that additional sound pressure from the ANR in the A20s on my ear parts or the residual noise itself. My QC25 headphones do produce very noticeable air or sound pressure when you turn them on, but not as noticeable in a high noise environment.

By the nature of ANR, so far as I understand it, if you have say 65dB of residual sound pressure in the ear cup after the passive sound reduction, the Bose needs to make additional out of phase noise (sound) of a certain dB power level to cancel the incoming noise, plus have the radio audio signal on top of this.

Yes, the ANR is working. I had them serviced recently to the tune of replacement headphones due to condensation damage.

I know all the math and theory involved here, but I am an Electrical engineer with power/harmonics/signal conditioning background, not an acoustic engineer...

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What a bunch of amateurs and wusses. I didn't acquire my first pair of headphones (DC 13.4's) until the mid 90's, a full 15 years after I started flying.

But for me, the Halo's are the perfect solution, comfy and quiet. Phil McCandless is a fellow Mooney driver and is here on MS as pmccand.

 

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Just for the heck of it I wore 20dB earplugs under my DC13.4's while on a fuel run. The biggest thing I noticed was the glasses-noise-leak when I uncovered my ears from the DCs. I could hear ATC just fine too.

Also took a sound level meter in with me. Was very surprised at the reading of 97.8dB cruising at 25/25 at 2,300 ft.

87dB while sitting on the ramp also seemed higher than I realized. fcc337e8b7546d7dccda2c69865d49d7.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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I had always thought our old E models were loud. When I first started flying ours I was suprised by the loudness. I'm not suprised that it registrars that high on the DB. I've done the earplugs under the headsets. You really need to crank the Comms to make it work. 

I normally everything but the Mooney with a helmet with electric earbuds. Much like clarity aloft or halo. The helmet further reduces the noise. 

The DC's with the  Oregon aero earpieces and kit  I think are just about the best you can do for the high noise environments. Bose with the Oregon earpiece upgrades are ok too, but all standard Bose are really bad with high levels of noise.  

-Matt

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3 hours ago, 211º said:

Just for the heck of it I wore 20dB earplugs under my DC13.4's while on a fuel run. The biggest thing I noticed was the glasses-noise-leak when I uncovered my ears from the DCs. I could hear ATC just fine too.

Also took a sound level meter in with me. Was very surprised at the reading of 97.8dB cruising at 25/25 at 2,300 ft.

87dB while sitting on the ramp also seemed higher than I realized. fcc337e8b7546d7dccda2c69865d49d7.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That's good to have, where did you find that at?

Thanks!

Brian

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What plane are you flying around in?

Add that to your avatar and we won't have to ask...

There are plenty of sound proof materials that have been added.  The search feature should be able to reveal what has been used in the past.

The Long Bodies have the best sound abaitment...  they moved the propellor a few feat away and really improved the sound deadening materials... some thicker windows is often employed too...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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9 hours ago, revwatch said:

Hopefully not derailing the thread too much, but is there any reasonable way to soundproof the cabin without compromising useful load? I think I would be ok with at least a 1:1 ratio lb to db reduction in useful load to knock the noise down.

 

I can start a new thread if that would be best..

Be very careful with that.  There were some insulations installed to do just that, but their thickness and the material type meant they held moisture, and the edges of the insulation are up against the tubular frame members.  I had to have some remediation done on the frame, including cutting out and replacing some of it, when I first bought my plane.  I just took the thick insulation the heck out of there.  The biggest source of sound in any event is through the firewall.

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16 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

What a bunch of amateurs and wusses. I didn't acquire my first pair of headphones (DC 13.4's) until the mid 90's, a full 15 years after I started flying.

But for me, the Halo's are the perfect solution, comfy and quiet. Phil McCandless is a fellow Mooney driver and is here on MS as pmccand.

 

Yeah, hanging around the trap/skeet clubs a few years ago I met alot of men who had a lifetime of shooting with no hearing protection or with at best tissue stuffed in their ears.  I noticed that all of them, if they wanted to have a conversation, would walk up, touch someone's arm, wait till the person turned to face them, and then started talking.  Every last one was a lip reader.

They had a trap mechanic at the club for awhile who had been a tank mechanic in the service, and who had fired the 50's on the tanks quite a bit.  When he pulled trap, he couldn't hear a thing.  You would have to wave your shotgun barrel so he knew it was time to throw the target.

Edited by jlunseth
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10 hours ago, carusoam said:

What plane are you flying around in?

Add that to your avatar and we won't have to ask...

I'm flying a desk right now but as soon as I buy a plane I will update my information!

I'm just researching and planning right now. I'll search for what other people have done on the forum, thanks.

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11 hours ago, revwatch said:

Hopefully not derailing the thread too much, but is there any reasonable way to soundproof the cabin without compromising useful load? I think I would be ok with at least a 1:1 ratio lb to db reduction in useful load to knock the noise down.

My E has the insulation on the firewall and I thought that it was relatively quiet with just the DC13.4's - I'm guessing that inside the earmuff is is around 70-75dB, but (noted before) the earplugs are the biggest improvement against sound leaking into the earmuff past the temples on my glasses.  

I'm looking forward to my next long cross country to see if there is a negative tradeoff to wearing both or if I'm noticeably "fresher" upon landing.

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I checked my J model at cruise last summer and it was around 95 db's. I used a free app on the cell phone. I do think most of the noise comes from the firewall and windshield. The thicker windshield would probably reduce the noise somewhat. A three blade prop might also help. Closed cell foam is probably a good idea when insulating as it doesn't absorb water. 

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I have a 3 blade prop. Why would it be quieter? Blade length is the same as the 2 blade props . . . so  on noise reduction. But it climbs well, making for less noise on the ground when departing.

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