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Confused about Cowl Fastener


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I was missing a cowl fastener for my 89 J model.  I ordered a 2700-7S CAMLOC FASTENER. (The fasteners in front and behind it both had a "7" on them so the -7S seemed like a good choice.  But as you can see in the picture the fastener was way too narrow a diameter.  I wanted what you see on the right, but got what's on the left.  Should I have ordered the 2800 ?   Or is there some extra grommet I need ?

The other related question I had--some of the fasteners come out of the cowl when I unscrew them and gently pull, others won't come out.  Are the ones that come out easy missing a retainer under the cowling ? 

Suggestions ?

Thanks.

fasteners.jpg

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Some of them have a collar (probably not the right word) that is a separate piece. It also helps immensely to have the special pliers to install these (not expensive). If nobody chimes in soon I'll send you more info when back at my office this afternoon.

They fall out typically when the holes become enlarged due to wear. There is supposed to be a retainer on them that could be missing but it's common for them to have this issue.


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Aircraft Spruce has the tools...  pliers are good for compressing that spring, but there is another tool for putting the collar on(?)...

getting the right size also has some guidelines in The AS catalog/site....  the Aircraft parts manual is pretty helpful for selecting the  fasteners...

Best regards,

-a-

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Getting closer but not quite there yet...

go to Aircraft Spruce.  They even have an M20J Cowling Kit

  • grommets
  • snap rings
  • recepticals
  • studs
  • camloc fastener tools

It is important to get the right 'series' 2700 looks to be the usual Mooney flush type.  Check before ordering...

That receptacle posted looks very complex compared to what Mooney used...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic.  But I grabbed the latest AS catalog off my shelf.... :)

when you get time, update your avatar.  Searching through everything to find your plane adds challenge to people who are trying to be helpful.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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20 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Getting closer but not quite there yet...

go to Aircraft Spruce.  They even have an M20J Cowling Kit

  • grommets
  • snap rings
  • recepticals
  • studs
  • camloc fastener tools

It is important to get the right 'series' 2700 looks to be the usual Mooney flush type.  Check before ordering...

That receptacle posted looks very complex compared to what Mooney used...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic.  But I grabbed the latest AS catalog off my shelf.... :)

when you get time, update your avatar.  Searching through everything to find your plane adds challenge to people who are trying to be helpful.

Best regards,

-a-

Sorry.  Avatar updated !

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I just checked my order from AS when I ordered a few replacement fasteners for our 89 J. The 2700 series fasteners have two sizes that are used to connect the upper cowl along the horizontal seam. The only difference is the length. The two part numbers I ordered were 27S3-4 and 27S3-7. I don't remember which is the shorter or which is the longer. Most of them are the short length. The rear most fastener on each side was the longer part number.

 

 

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Half of mine come out. I found it easier to take them out then to have them stay in but cause problems. The ones that stay in get caught sometimes. It also seems that the ones that go on the inlet by the spinner cause a lot of trouble if they aren't removed. Then the fun part begins when it is time to put them back in but they are all different sizes!

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I think my 231 only has three different sizes, but they are still a pain to keep up with. I have seriously considered swapping a few with phillips slots so I would know which go where.

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Normally the firewall flange gets 4000-XX series, the horizontal seam gets 2700-XX series, you likely also have AN 960C516L washers added due to large worn holes.  The retainers are normally 2600-SW floating style or 2600 LW fixed style.

This washer is normal on M models for the fasteners on the NACA inlet ducts.

Clarence

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As Clarence noted the fasteners along the horizontal seam are flush-style 2700 series and the ones running from the bottom of each side vertically across the cowling top are 4000 series and will include  an appropriate grommet.

The special pliers are in fact the tool needed to install the 4200 fastener into the grommet as well as getting the 2700s into un-worn cowling holes.

The 2700s use a flat split-washer to retain the unit. You put the fastener in the hole and then bend (twist) the washer open to install on the inside of the cowling before straightening it out again to lay flat (easy to do with a couple of needle-nose pliers).

With the 4000s you install the grommet through the cowling and then install a thin spring-steel c-clip around it inside the cowling (to retain the grommet). The fastener is then placed in the special pliers and its shank fully extended so that you can insert the fastener through the grommet at an angle. The fasteners cannot fall out of the grommet, but if your holes are worn the grommets (along with the fasteners) may fall out.

The fastener length is determined by the thickness of all the materials it passes through, and also by the amount of wear to the hole. Ideally the center stud should remain flush with the body when installed. This may require you to use 2-4 different length fasteners. Trial and error works well for this. Also, with the 4000 series you may be able to add a (very) thin teflon washer between the grommet and the cowling to stop or at least reduce wear in the fiberglass cowling (and aluminum backing).

Also, there's another awesome company in Leesburg, Florida called Skybolt Aeromotive that has a complete line of Camloc equivalent/compatible fasteners that are super helpful, affordable, and excellent quality. I replaced all my Camlocs a couple of years ago with the SS Skybolts and couldn't be more pleased. Check out WWW.skybolt.com for more info. I'll attach their catalog .pdf for your reading enjoyment.

Before and after pics attached as well.

 

IMG_5846 (2).JPG

IMG_5981 (2).JPG

catalog-skyboltproduct.pdf

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M20Doc - What is the right size fastener for the M20M NACA Duct?  Better yet, which is the part number from SkyBolt I could order for my plane?  One of mine fell out and the local airplane parts store doesn't have one that fits... Thanks so much!

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+1 on the Skybolt replacements for the 2700's.  The larger flange makes it less likely to pull through or wear through the fiberglass holes.

Skybolt also makes replacements for the 4000 series fasteners, but I don't know if there is as big an advantage.

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6 hours ago, carqwik said:

M20Doc - What is the right size fastener for the M20M NACA Duct?  Better yet, which is the part number from SkyBolt I could order for my plane?  One of mine fell out and the local airplane parts store doesn't have one that fits... Thanks so much!

It should be a 2700-X and a AN960C516L washer.  The dash number should be visible on the head of an existing fastener.  I would assume that the Skybolt version would use the same dash number.

Clarence

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15 hours ago, cnoe said:

As Clarence noted the fasteners along the horizontal seam are flush-style 2700 series and the ones running from the bottom of each side vertically across the cowling top are 4000 series and will include  an appropriate grommet.

The special pliers are in fact the tool needed to install the 4200 fastener into the grommet as well as getting the 2700s into un-worn cowling holes.

The 2700s use a flat split-washer to retain the unit. You put the fastener in the hole and then bend (twist) the washer open to install on the inside of the cowling before straightening it out again to lay flat (easy to do with a couple of needle-nose pliers).

With the 4000s you install the grommet through the cowling and then install a thin spring-steel c-clip around it inside the cowling (to retain the grommet). The fastener is then placed in the special pliers and its shank fully extended so that you can insert the fastener through the grommet at an angle. The fasteners cannot fall out of the grommet, but if your holes are worn the grommets (along with the fasteners) may fall out.

The fastener length is determined by the thickness of all the materials it passes through, and also by the amount of wear to the hole. Ideally the center stud should remain flush with the body when installed. This may require you to use 2-4 different length fasteners. Trial and error works well for this. Also, with the 4000 series you may be able to add a (very) thin teflon washer between the grommet and the cowling to stop or at least reduce wear in the fiberglass cowling (and aluminum backing).

Also, there's another awesome company in Leesburg, Florida called Skybolt Aeromotive that has a complete line of Camloc equivalent/compatible fasteners that are super helpful, affordable, and excellent quality. I replaced all my Camlocs a couple of years ago with the SS Skybolts and couldn't be more pleased. Check out WWW.skybolt.com for more info. I'll attach their catalog .pdf for your reading enjoyment.

Before and after pics attached as well.

 

IMG_5846 (2).JPG

IMG_5981 (2).JPG

catalog-skyboltproduct.pdf

It looks like we have different sized fasteners (diameter).  Interestingly Aircraft Spruce sells kits only for J models until 1987, so there might have been a change then...

I looked in the parts manual.  Looks like I need grommets...is this the tool I need to attach grommet to stud ?  The description that they give and other sites as well is very vague.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/camloctools3.php?clickkey=3026642

4P3.jpg

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I feel stupid, I can't find the M20J cowling kits you guys are talking about on aircraft spruce. Can someone post the link? Sorry


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You can try both:
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/sb-mooney-cwl-kit.php?clickkey=2235085
and
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cowlingkits2.php?clickkey=2235085
but I can't comment on what you'll get with each. I bought the individual components (phillips SS) all from SkyBolt myself.


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When ordering from AS...

There is a button to click on for getting the free catalog.

It is like surfing the web, but each of the 1000 pages is more interesting...

Page 103 has the cowling kits.  04-00321 B (camloc) is the part number for the J

They have a phone number if you want to go real old school.

Best regards,

-a-

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I can only comment relative to Skybolt fasteners as when I did my rebuild I used all Skybolt.  I have two sizes 4000 series which are adjustable and give no problems at all.  I also have 2000 fasterners and have the large that will not pull through.  There is only a few thousanths of an inch in hole size which keeps the fastener on the cowling when removed.  I discussed this with Skybolt and they sent me a nylon washer which works well.  It is installed on the 2000 series fastener, inside the "T," between the T and the barrel.  When the fastener and cowling are installed, the nylon washer fits between the 2 cowling parts (thus also offering some wear protection).  When the cowling is removed, they keep the fattener from falling out of the hole in the cowling.  I have the part No. but just not here.

John Breda

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9 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

I can only comment relative to Skybolt fasteners as when I did my rebuild I used all Skybolt.  I have two sizes 4000 series which are adjustable and give no problems at all.  I also have 2000 fasterners and have the large that will not pull through.  There is only a few thousanths of an inch in hole size which keeps the fastener on the cowling when removed.  I discussed this with Skybolt and they sent me a nylon washer which works well.  It is installed on the 2000 series fastener, inside the "T," between the T and the barrel.  When the fastener and cowling are installed, the nylon washer fits between the 2 cowling parts (thus also offering some wear protection).  When the cowling is removed, they keep the fattener from falling out of the hole in the cowling.  I have the part No. but just not here.

John Breda

The nylon washer for the 2000 series fasteners is a #4 Nylon washer, part no. NAS1515-H-04L.  

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 20/05/2017 at 2:35 AM, cnoe said:

Check out WWW.skybolt.com for more info. I'll attach their catalog .pdf for your reading enjoyment.

Thanks for the post. It is always great to search for something and find that someone else has already forged a path.

I've another question to add that I couldn't find the answer for:

Exactly which product numbers did you use? 'Thumbing' through the catalog, I see that there are 16 different length options and I think I have about 16 different camlocs on my cowling atm... :unsure: so I'm not sure which is the right one.

Flying an '81 201

Thanks

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10 minutes ago, AF M20J said:

Thanks for the post. It is always great to search for something and find that someone else has already forged a path.

I've another question to add that I couldn't find the answer for:

Exactly which product numbers did you use? 'Thumbing' through the catalog, I see that there are 16 different length options and I think I have about 16 different camlocs on my cowling atm... :unsure: so I'm not sure which is the right one.

Flying an '81 201

Thanks

Find the fasteners which are completely flush, examine the end closely and you should see a number embossed on it.  That is the dash number equalling its length.  Normally the two fasteners on the horizontal seam at the firewall are longer than the others on the horizontal.  The horizontal are Camloc 2700 series and the larger ones on the firewall are 4000 series.

Clarence

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