Josho Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Hello all, New to the forum. I've been looking at a pretty nice M20F. Overall its a pretty nice aircraft, but the log books were destroyed in a fire in 2008. However, the owner had all the work orders and invoices from when the plane had been worked on for the history of the airplane. Do you think the log books would be a deal breaker? Just looking for any advice. Thanks! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Are there NO log books at all? Or just no logs prior to 2008? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josho Posted May 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Just no logs prior to 2008. They were reconstructed using said invoices and work orders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 I had the same problem, except it was a flood. Original owner was an attorney and saved everything, so the history of the plane was easily recreated with work orders, invoices, correspondence, etc. These papers had far more detail than regular log entries too. My banker was initially concerned about "missing logs" but it took less than 3 minutes for him to realize the history was there.You can also look at it as a discount opportunity, and that stigma/discount relaxes with time so if you sell 5-10 years from now with regular use, maintenance, and records the next buyer should be more comfortable.You should still get a thorough PPI looking for previous damage though.Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 If the plane has been properly annual'ed every year since 2008 and all is properly logged. In addition all AD's need to have been inspected, verified and logged since 2008. I wouldn't be so worried about the situation prior to 2008 as long as everything since then is properly documented. You might send copies of the 2008 and forward logs to Savvy for analysis. They do this for free and will let you know if anything glaring is missing. Also order the CD from the FAA which will have a complete history of all 337's and any major repairs done on that plane. You should certainly get a discount for the missing logs, but it's not a deal breaker in my opinion. The discount will protect you at resell time. There are plenty of buyers who WILL consider it a deal breaker and that could affect your resale ability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MooneyMitch Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 My opinion, excellent advice given to you so far. With that said, if you do acquire the Mooney, do make copies (at least one), of all documents available, and all future log books and documents. Enjoy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josho Posted May 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) Regarding the discount, how much of a discount should I look for to account for the logbooks? The asking price is 49k. Edited May 17, 2017 by Josho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 49K seems to be on the low end for an F. That is a bit concerning already. If it's truly a nice example of an F, then 49K might have already priced in the missing books. But I'd be taking a good hard look at it. Airplanes on the low end of the price range are usually not actually a good buy and can ultimately cost more than a properly priced model. We've seen four of five examples of this just over the last year on this forum. If you're willing to name the plane you're looking at here, the collective will help give you a proper evaluation. If not, there are several F experts on this forum who you could PM for some good advice on the valuation. @Marauder is top of that list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josho Posted May 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Here is the plane in question. I greatly appreciate all help! http://www.selectaviationservices.com/1967mooneym20fexec21.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Missing airframe logs are most concerning and it has to be discounted appropriately, 25 to 30% I would expect. May be a perfectly good airplane but missing logs are missing logs and there's no good excuse for it. If logs were taken so lightly and allowed to become lost you just don't know to what standards it was maintained, what history made it in the logs and what didn't. It is missing proper documentation. Recreating it out of receipts is not a substitute for logs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Here is the plane in question. I greatly appreciate all help! http://www.selectaviationservices.com/1967mooneym20fexec21.html That plane has a lot going for it at that price IMO. I'd be all over it, and suspect it might sell quickly. Just go thru what records exist and get a good PPI. Times are good, equipment is good, cosmetics seem good. Hopefully there is no corrosion, leaky tanks, etc.Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXB Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 On the surface, it looks like a good value for the price. Some discount for no airframe logs may already be included. Given no air frame log before 2008, an extra careful prebuy inspection from a real Mooney expert may be particularly worth it here - Doing so is pretty effective at ferreting out corrosion, prior damage history, and quality of repairs. If you like the plane, I would pursue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsxrpilot Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 I agree with Scott. I think this plane might be priced properly already. If it will pass a thorough and independent PPI, at $45K it's a good deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josho Posted May 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Does anyone know a good Mooney expert in the Mississippi Tennessee Alabama area? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpaul Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 I am going to say it before everyone else does. Don Maxwell in Longview TX is not far by Mooney and the foremost expert in all things Mooney. He would be able to pick up on "repairs" that other may not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 41 minutes ago, kpaul said: I am going to say it before everyone else does. Don Maxwell in Longview TX is not far by Mooney and the foremost expert in all things Mooney. He would be able to pick up on "repairs" that other may not. It looks like it's been to Longview TX before. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N2977L You might call Don Maxwell and ask him about it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said: It looks like it's been to Longview TX before. https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N2977L You might call Don Maxwell and ask him about it. Just what I was thinking. It looks like he did some patching on the tanks. What might concern me is the damage/corrosion repair in AF logbook #1 and #2. Was there anything earlier? The CD from the FAA with the 337's and an excellent PPI from DMAX might mitigate those concerns, but a discount would likely be in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Scranton Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 I bought a 75 F with missing logs...mine start in the mid 90s, but...the key is has it been flown and well maintained for the last decade? If yes, then go for it!! Nice looking bird. I'd move forward...do your PPI. You have some negotiating power with the missing logs. Maybe $5K worth. No damage history as shown on the FAA db... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Google search and NTSB search. Order the CD from FAA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Just now, Yetti said: Google search and NTSB search. Order the CD from FAA You can get the FAA records quicker if you spend a little extra https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/buying-an-aircraft/aircraft-title-and-escrow-services Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josho Posted May 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Well, I've made an offer, but they seem to be unwilling to have a PPI done anywhere but at their hangar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 That's a red flag...you can risk seeing if someone else will take those terms, or wait them out and see if they relax their position. You might have to pay one their folks to fly it to a PPI and wait, then fly back if they change their mind.If it has been to a Mooney shop recently, you might be able to call and ask about it, then maybe follow up with a local mechanic at their hangar as another option.Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 One of the challenges with a log free airplane is the proof that everything is in an airworthy condition. Often this is done by serial numbers on all of the minuscule parts that are assembled then bolted on. Each serial number represents that each part was made correctly from the factory it came from. Each part can be traced back through the beginning of time for the plane... Each time an AD comes through the system, plane owners look up the serial number related to their plane to know if the AD applies to their airframe and the part they have. A worst case for this would be finding the SN of an engine Part like the cam. By the time you have the cam out to positively identify it, an OH may be in order to put it back correctly and economically for the long haul... There is an SB out on some IO550s that may require owners to know cam details. These are readily available if the engine log or builder's logs are available. Otherwise it may take opening the engine to some extent to access the details... Not Having logs can be a serious challenge if AW comes into question. The first time a plane gets an annual at a new shop, they start with a review of the history of ADs. Consider if your new acquisition can be completed without the logs. A good PPI at a strong shop should be able to give you insight of the bird in question. Anything that requires an OH to get to all the SNs is a serious cost. Hence the big discount on planes without logs. in the end, there is risk that it will cost more money to have the plane put back in AW condition after an AD, than a plane that has good provenance... This is only PP thoughts on something to consider when thinking about planes that don't have their proper logs. Not a mechanic's idea... +1 on getting input from somebody with the strengths of DMax.... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 (With apologies to Anthony) 1. Missing logs prior to 2008 - recreated from invoices, 337's, etc. 2. Engine run about 110 hours since 2010 (9/1/2014 & 9/1/2015 annuals entries for engine have same Tach/TSMOH times) 3. Same mechanic on annuals since 2011 with different dates/times on annuals for the same year (2014 - Engine log shows Tach 319.5 on 9/1/14. AF log shows Tach 314.1 on 9/15/14. See #2 above) 4. Refusal to take plane for PPI. Will they let another mechanic come there to do the PPI? 5. Airframe already treated for corrosion in 2010. I myself would say this meets the criteria of not being flown regularly and potentially not being well maintained with what logbook entries there are not making sense from a chronological perspective. Take a pass on this one. Your plane is out there, but this may not be it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 I bought an '67 F earlier this year that was similarly priced but had new paint, new windows, cowl enclosure, and similar avionics and COMPLETE logs with no damage history for about the same price. Not allowing a MSC to do a PPI would be the red flag for me, too. I have since traded up for a 231 with brand new glass. I would have to agree with @gsxrpilot: Buy the the TOP of the line, most flown, best equipment you can afford for the model year that is in your budget. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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