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How Many Hours Between Oil Changes?


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8 hours ago, N6758N said:

Not intending to start an argument...but there have been a rash of engines with stuck valves that were running Phillips, do a little research and you'll see what I am talking about. 

Many moons ago, just after the Arc ran aground and it wasn't 20W50 XC, it was XC2.

Clarence

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Is anyone using Phillips 100 victory oil?  I spoke with the Phillips rep at Sun n Fun, he said that Aeroshell plus does not meet the Lycoming bulletin requirements.  He claimed that Phillips contained 3 times as much additive as Aeroshell.  It's priced at several dollars per quart less.

https://phillips66lubricants.com/product/victory-aviation-oil-100aw

Clarence

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9 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Sounds good!  Oil lives a really tough life in a Turbo'd engine.

The Turbo bearings are pretty close to where the exhaust gas turbine is... it sees nearly EGT temps... depending on how your EGT is measured...

The M20C circulates oil through the exhaust valve guides...  it sees nearly EGT temps...

Coked oil in the valve guides results in stuck valves.

I think oil in an M20C lives a really tough life for the Same reason it does in a turbo'd engine.

Funny thing...  every now and then a discussion pops up regarding how to Best cool these particular parts prior to shut down...

There isn't a good way to measure the oil temp in the valve guides, but hot CHTs should be avoided prior to shut down....

Oil degradation temps are near the red line on the oil temp gauge... pretty low compared to EGTs that the valve sees...

Both Time and temperature are required to break an oil molecule.  The hotter it gets the less time it takes to break....

Note on camguard... one of its famed functions is the ability to Keep oil from dripping off the cam. This applies equally well to Turbo bearings and valve stems...  probably has nothing to do with temperature resistance of the oil to keep from breaking down.

There isn't a disadvantage to changing oil early and often, other than the cost....

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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We had a Philips distributor contract back in the 80's when this issue occurred. Phillips recalled all of the XCII oil as it had been as I recall blended out of an oil base that had a lot of Sulfur in it, However what ever it was, it caused our rental airplanes to have problems with the valves sticking almost every 100 hours so that we got real adept at reaming the valve guides per the Lycoming Service bulletin. Shortly after that was when the recall occurred and we stopped using it.

Anecdotally the person who ordered and managed our oil at that time never got our stock of XCII sent in to Phillips within the recall moratorium date and we ended up stuck with about 100 cases of Phillips XCII 20W 50 in our stock room. Phillips would not take it back. So we tried using one quart in every oil change. That did not work either, soon after we started using just one quart in an oil change we started having the valve sticking problem again. After changing to Aero Shell single weight oils we never had that valve sticking problem on a regular occurring basis after that. We also when the price was right went back to using Phillips XC 20W 50 (the current product) some years latter when a different distributor offered us better pricing than we were getting with the Aero Shell. As a courtesy they took back all of the original XCII 20 W 50 oil stock we had remaining. Which were still around 100 cases.
I would say that a good ½ of my customers used XC 20W 50 (current) after that with no problem. I have never had a problem using it. 

We also got Balled up in the Mobil One synthetic oil issue and several customers that had insisted on using that ended up having to have their engines replaced, Repaired and props overhauled or flushed.
A&P, IA, New owner C170A N1208D, Have rebuilt some 50 aircraft. So many airplanes, So little time!
.


I was one of those Mooney pilots that for a short term used the fully synthetic Mobile 1. I had just had a new engine installed in my 261 conversion, and the Mooney factory was recommending using this oil. As I recall, so did Beechcraft. Anyway it wasn't long before a number of Beechcraft aircraft were having engine problems, and then the Mooneys started having problems. Ultimately the FAA forced Mobil to stop selling Mobil fully synthetic oil to aviation. I had a huge battle with Mobil over being paid for a new engine, but with LASAR's help they did end up paying me about $35,000, and I had Paul build me a fantastic custom engine that cost twice that. And as soon as it was broken in on mineral oil, I switched back the Shell 100+.


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10 hours ago, orionflt said:

For non turboed engines i use 50 hour, 25 on turboed engines

Brian

That's what I've been told, so that's what I do.  25 for me, or as soon after that as practical.  TSIO-360-LB Continental.  And I've been using Shell Elite, because that's what it had in it.  I only need to add a quart every 10-12 hours, so it seems to be working well.  But I don't see anyone else using Exxon.  Thoughts or suggestions?

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1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

Is anyone using Phillips 100 victory oil?  I spoke with the Phillips rep at Sun n Fun, he said that Aeroshell plus does not meet the Lycoming bulletin requirements.  He claimed that Phillips contained 3 times as much additive as Aeroshell.  It's priced at several dollars per quart less.

https://phillips66lubricants.com/product/victory-aviation-oil-100aw

Clarence

So a Phillips rep is saying that Aeroshell plus does not meet Lycoming requirements. That's funny! I think I trust Shell over some rep talking out of his anus! He should concentrate on selling his product on its merits and not be so concerned about Aeroshell. Unless ofcourse his product is not selling!

"AeroShell Oil W100 Plus and W80 Plus already contain the Lycoming additive LW 16702 in the correct proportions and meets Lycoming requirements as well as the US Federal Aviation Authority Airworthiness directive 80-04-03."

http://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/piston-engine-oil/w100plus-w80plus.html

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50 minutes ago, PTK said:

A Phillips rep is saying that Aeroshell plus does not meet Lycoming requirements. That's funny! I think I trust Shell over some rep talking out of his anus! He should concentrate on selling his product on its merits and not be so concerned about Aeroshell. Unless ofcourse his product is not selling!

"AeroShell Oil W100 Plus and W80 Plus already contain the Lycoming additive LW 16702 in the correct proportions and meets Lycoming requirements as well as the US Federal Aviation Authority Airworthiness directive 80-04-03."

http://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/piston-engine-oil/w100plus-w80plus.html

I never said I believed him, just curious if anyone is using it as it's cheaper than Aershell.  

As for the rest, it's like being up sold by any professional, even dentists!

Clarence

edit:  Triphenyl phosphate is the required additive.  Here are the MSDS sheets for Aeroshell 100 plus and Phillips Victory 100AW.  It seems Phillips contains more.

image.jpg

image.jpg

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I have a turbo and I don't see any signs that the turbo has any affect on the oil. If I run LOP the oil will stay honey color and clear for 20 hours or so. If I run ROP it turns black in about 5 hours. 

Has anyone ever seen any direct evidence of coking? I think it is an old wives tale. 

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12 hours ago, N6758N said:

Not intending to start an argument...but there have been a rash of engines with stuck valves that were running Phillips, do a little research and you'll see what I am talking about. 

I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING ABOUT THIS.  I am HIGHLY skeptical, until proven otherwise.  I am a longtime Phillips X/C and Camguard user.

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2 hours ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Opinions are going to vary on this but Aviation Consumer looked at this question a few years ago and generally recommended Phillips XC. They further recommended the addition of Camguard if you fly less frequently than every 10 days.  This was already what I was doing so I followed their advice. :)

+1

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1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

 

Has anyone ever seen any direct evidence of coking? I think it is an old wives tale. 

I had Carbon chunks removed from the valve guides of my M20C.  Carbon bits would show up on the oil screen.

Air cooling of an M20C with a standard cowl, no POH, no MS, and no engine monitor is a bad idea...

I only had the one valve stuck.  On departure. The valve impacted the piston and bent the stem.  First 10 hours of Mooney ownership...

Best regards,

-a-

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6 minutes ago, carusoam said:

I had Carbon chunks removed from the valve guides of my M20C.  Carbon bits would show up on the oil screen.

Air cooling of an M20C with a standard cowl, no POH, no MS, and no engine monitor is a bad idea...

I only had the one valve stuck.  On departure. The valve impacted the piston and bent the stem.  First 10 hours of Mooney ownership...

Best regards,

-a-

Ok, but I was asking about coking caused by a turbo. Most of what you describe are probably combustion byproducts. 

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I bet you would have to try really hard to land with a red hot TIT every time to get the combination of heat and time, required to turn oil into carbon chunks.  Modern Mooney turbos have such high flow rates of oil running through them for cooling purposes, the residence time while the engine is running is quite short...

The other challenge that comes with the high TITs is the turbine blades turn into nubs...

I got my latest education regarding oil flow and turbos from an APS presentation shared on BT...

No first hand experience on turbos from me, yet...  :)

Best regards,

-a-

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For information and discussion: 

I do Blackstone oil analysis at every oil change. The 10/16 report was my first one of three so far in this airplane/engine since I've had it. Three cylinders were replaced a few months before I bought the airplane last fall and that oil had 50 hours on it when changed, 45 of which were ROP and before I bought the airplane (which, in my opinion also lead to the three cylinders needing replacement in the first place) and the last 5 hours of the 50 were run LOP after I started flying it. Yes the readings are a bit confounded by the new cylinders but the oil analysis clearly shows a difference for the better in the second oil change and continued improvement in the most recent oil change. The most recent oil change was done a bit earlier than normal since it was in for annual.

 

Blackstone N5810D.pdf

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4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I learned about 10 years ago that if you try to lean on climb out it does that.

2.7 AMUs 

It is though a good procedure to do in a NA engine if not done aggressively as you really do need to reduce fuel as the air thins (keeping an eye on the CHT's). 

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Another thing to consider is the conditions the oil was used in...Dusty, Hot & Dry, change it more often. My E sat for sometime before I purchased it, the previous owner would start it up, taxi around and go around the patch and put up ever so often. When I got it back in the air (with new oil & filter) I change the oil & filter at 2 hrs, the next oil & filter was 3 hrs later at 5 hrs, both of those looked good so I flew it for another 5 hrs and changed it again. So to recap the total hrs I've owned it the oil was changed at 0, 2, 5, 10, 20, 45, like I said earlier..Oil & Filters are cheap...the last 2 changes I ran the used oil in my 7.3L PowerStroke just as it came out of the plane, the first few changes I was getting carbon deposits, but all is clear now

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6 hours ago, Bayern Speed said:

I go 50 hours, oil, filter and lab test. AeroShell 15-50 has the Lycoming LW 16702 anti wear additive already added. 

http://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/piston-engine-oil/w15w50.html

I looked for any info on what percentage of the additive it contains with no success so far, the MSDS doesn't address it.

Clarence

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Interesting discussion and oil change methodologies. I am not sure how deep the group want to get into the dark, slimy world of engine oils (yup the pun was intended) so I will keep it high level (if you don't want to read me yammering on about this you can go to this link for a simple explanation http://www.blackstone-labs.com/do-i-need-a-tbn.php )

In a perfect would we get every last useful drop of life out of our oil before we change it. To do this we have to monitor 2 of 3 of the oils properties. These properties are contaminates and Base or Acid of the oil. Contaminates are crap suspended in the oil (soot, wear metals, fuel, etc..) which is represented in our wear metal PPM and ISO cleanliness code (The ISO Code is for all used oils other than use engine oil as engine oil is generally too dark for manual or automated testing). Base is the collection of additives which give the oil it protective properties (ZDDP, anti-foam, etc...) This is represented through the ASTM test for Total Base Number (TBN) and is generally not part of a normal AC engine oil test suite. As the oils Base is depleted the TBN also goes down. If this number is used the oil is usually changed when it reaches half of its new value (i.e. New oil TBN of 12 change when in service oil TBN reaches 6). Acid is generated by the depletion of additives as the oil does it's job protecting, in this case the engine. This is represented through the ASTM test for Total Acid Number (TAN) and also is not part of the normal AC engine oil test suite. As the oils additives are depleted this number will rise. If this number is used oil is usually changed when the value reaches 0.3+.

Using the above method in a perfect world you can maximize your oils life without risking damage to your engine. Though you may want to do a cost/benefit analysis to see if doing the added tests make financial sense over doing a time based oil change.

Now as we all know we don't live in a perfect world and as carusoam said " there isn't a disadvantage to changing oil early and often, other than the cost.

Other notes;

1. The color of the oil in most cases does not tell you if the oil is still good.

2. You will not find oil additive information on MSDS sheets, your lab or the oil company sales staff will have that.

Just my 2 cents.

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Ed Kollin, inventor of camguard told me the bulk of what lowers oil change internals is how many engine starts as well as how many takeoffs. I found this interesting because most understand that the oil we run isn't "worn out" at 50 hours or less but it is contaminated with blow by resulting in by products that are acidic and will cause corrosion. Given the antiquated cylinder design of a air cooled cylinder with large tolerances any excessive rich condition exponentially reduces oil life. Now until we get liquid cooled cylinders we can keep changing our oil at 50 hours or less and in my case 30 hours.


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