nels Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 I'm thinking about buying a set of fine wires for my 1978 J. Number 2 cylinder seems to fowl after taxiing around the airport and is sometimes hard to get cleared prior to take off. Looking at the plug it is just wet. I switched it with the best one from another cylinder and I am suspecting the fouled cylinder will follow the fouled plug. Also, like most injected Mooneys, I am always concerned with hot starts. So my question is: has anybody just switched to fine wire plugs, doing nothing else to confuse the issue, and noticed a significant improvement in plug fouling and hot start capability? And which fine wire plug is recommended and what plug number? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 I noticed smoother operation, especially LOP. Finewires will foul, but not as easily. There seem to be more value in finewires for those of us at airports where ground ops are extended. Extreme leaning helps massive plugs. Alcor TCP also helps if you are not running the engine hard enough. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyril Gibb Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 1 hour ago, nels said: I'm thinking about buying a set of fine wires for my 1978 J. Number 2 cylinder seems to fowl after taxiing around the airport and is sometimes hard to get cleared prior to take off. Looking at the plug it is just wet. Before shelling out for new plugs, do you lean very aggressively in ground ops? To the point of engine stumble if you add an additional crack of throttle? And I assume you've verified that it's lead fouling, not oil fouling? Wet usually means oil. Sooty usually means rich. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 Nels, yes, fine wire (Tempest) helped my IO360 with fouling and starting. 5 years after switching I have never had an issue with a spark plug or had one out except at annual. There are several threads here to help you pick the right plug for your engine and harness or go to Aircraft Spruce site for that info. My IO360A1A engine takes UREM 38S but you need to verify whether you need 5/8"-24 (UREB36S or UREM38S) or 3/4"-20 (URHB36S or URHM38S) https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/TempestAppGuideV3-07-01-13.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 Which engine? I had a cylinder that would let oil in on shutdown.  My Professional is not a big fan of fine wires.  I had put fine wires on the bottom. We moved them to the top and put BY plugs on the bottom. The BY plugs have an extended electrode that keeps them out of the bottom of the cylinder. REM37BY for the A1A engine Chart for other engines. https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SI1042AC Approved Spark Plugs.pdf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyril Gibb Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, Yetti said: REM37BY for the A1A engine +1 .... top and bottom for me  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nels Posted May 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Cyril Gibb said: Before shelling out for new plugs, do you lean very aggressively in ground ops? To the point of engine stumble if you add an additional crack of throttle? And I assume you've verified that it's lead fouling, not oil fouling? Wet usually means oil. Sooty usually means rich. I could probably lean further and should, I guess. I'm usually ok unless I end up taxiing all the way around the airport to catch the opposite runway. It is fuel fouling and top plugs were all clean and dry with the exception of #2. I do have Champion fine wires on the bottoms of the cylinders. I would have pulled those but a lot of extra work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nels Posted May 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Cyril Gibb said: +1 .... top and bottom for me  You have fine wires top and bottom? Did you notice any improvement directly pointing to the plug change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nels Posted May 10, 2017 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Yetti said: Which engine? I had a cylinder that would let oil in on shutdown.  My Professional is not a big fan of fine wires.  I had put fine wires on the bottom. We moved them to the top and put BY plugs on the bottom. The BY plugs have an extended electrode that keeps them out of the bottom of the cylinder. REM37BY for the A1A engine Chart for other engines. https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SI1042AC Approved Spark Plugs.pdf Original io360 engine. I have champion fine wires on the bottom now. Maybe, from what you are saying, I should put the fines on top and hotter extended BY's on the bottom. What does the BY stand for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyril Gibb Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 7 hours ago, nels said: You have fine wires top and bottom? Did you notice any improvement directly pointing to the plug change? Nope... BYs are extended nose NOT fine wire. They are my personal preference (contrary to the consensus opinion on MooneySpace). .. and BY37s are cooler in heat range than the alternative typically 38s.... lower heat range number is cooler, higher hotter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevesm20b Posted May 10, 2017 Report Share Posted May 10, 2017 I switched to the BY plugs and haven't had a fouled plus since. The same price as the standard plugs. Much better choice than the expensive fine wire plugs if you have a cylinder that's using a lot of oil. Â 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnoe Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 Note that the BY plugs are not designated for the IO360-A3B6D that is likely in your J. Fine wires are the bomb, and only "necessary" on bottom. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 According the the Lycoming SI BY plugs are approved for IO360 A,B,D and J series engines. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnoe Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 According the the Lycoming SI BY plugs are approved for IO360 A,B,D and J series engines. Clarence Thanks Clarence. The SI link above doesn't work for me and it's not easily pulled up on a Google search. I'd be happy to know that I'm mistaken in my previous comment. The Champion application guide shows the BY plugs as an option for the IO360A1 but not for my IO360A3. Hopefully the Lycoming documents state otherwise as I'd like to try them on top. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 The tempest user guide shows the same, BY plugs are acceptable in IO360 series. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 There is a known discrepancy between the champion guide and the Lycoming SB Has to do with when they were published. Check dates. Go with most recent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob_Belville Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 9 hours ago, cnoe said:  Thanks Clarence. The SI link above doesn't work for me and it's not easily pulled up on a Google search. I'd be happy to know that I'm mistaken in my previous comment. The Champion application guide shows the BY plugs as an option for the IO360A1 but not for my IO360A3. Hopefully the Lycoming documents state otherwise as I'd like to try them on top. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk  That Champion chart shows the M20E having a -A1D and the M20F having a -A1A. Not so. Both have A1A. I'm not sure whether that's a serious mistake but they do indicate that the A1A can use RHM40E or REM37BY and that the A1D cannot. I'd have to verify that info from another authority before ordering! The Tempest chart from Aircraft Spruce indicates only these engines can/must run the 37E massives and 36S fine wire: IO-360-A1B6, C1A, C1F, F1A Series (Long Reach). https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/TempestAppGuideV3-07-01-13.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnoe Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 3 hours ago, M20Doc said:  The tempest user guide shows the same, BY plugs are acceptable in IO360 series.  I just looked at the Tempest Application chart and you're right; it doesn't exclude the A3 engines like the Champion chart does. That's good news. The bad news (that I didn't know) is that the BY plugs aren't compatible with the 3/4"-20 ignition harness. 47 minutes ago, Yetti said: There is a known discrepancy between the champion guide and the Lycoming SB Has to do with when they were published. Check dates. Go with most recent. I got the Lycoming link to work this morning on my PC. Thanks for providing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyril Gibb Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 Summary based on Lycoming SI1042a from January of this year: Any Lycoming 360 that can use REM**** plugs can use BYs. (5/8" harness and short reach) except helicopter engines for whatever reason. Anyone know why? Is the compression ratio, hence piston to plug clearance, different (higher)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 11, 2017 Report Share Posted May 11, 2017 The helicopter version does use a higher CR. With that, the clearance between the piston and cylinder head gets narrower. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 On 5/10/2017 at 6:24 PM, cnoe said: Note that the BY plugs are not designated for the IO360-A3B6D that is likely in your J. Fine wires are the bomb, and only "necessary" on bottom. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk If you use fine wires on the bottoms, how do you end up rotating your plugs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cnoe Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 If you use fine wires on the bottoms, how do you end up rotating your plugs? The IO360-A3B6D used in most Js employs the Bendix "dual mag" which alternates the spark direction across the plugs' electrodes eliminating the need for plug rotation. Some choose to rotate a cylinder's plugs top-to-bottom but only to equalize lead build-up. If you clean the plugs there's no need for rotation at all.Those utilizing two separate mags would indeed experience accelerated electrode wear if not rotating in the traditional manner.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted May 12, 2017 Report Share Posted May 12, 2017 What do the guys in Ada Oklahoma say about fine wire versus massive wire plugs ? What does the science say ??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 13, 2017 Report Share Posted May 13, 2017 10 hours ago, Bartman said: What do the guys in Ada Oklahoma say about fine wire versus massive wire plugs ? What does the science say ??? RAM Aircraft in Texas seem to like them. http://www.ramaircraft.com/Maintenance-Tips/Spark Plugs-Fine-Wire-vs-Massive.htm Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylw314 Posted May 13, 2017 Report Share Posted May 13, 2017 On 5/12/2017 at 6:04 AM, cnoe said:  The IO360-A3B6D used in most Js employs the Bendix "dual mag" which alternates the spark direction across the plugs' electrodes eliminating the need for plug rotation. Some choose to rotate a cylinder's plugs top-to-bottom but only to equalize lead build-up. If you clean the plugs there's no need for rotation at all. Those utilizing two separate mags would indeed experience accelerated electrode wear if not rotating in the traditional manner. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk  Ah.  Didn't realize that.  I have an A3B6 with two Slick mags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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