donkaye Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 I was in talking to my Avionics shop today and was informed that as of July 1st ALL MANUALS ARE TO BE DISTROYED, ALL PARTS ARE TO BE RETURNED, AND NO WORK ON BK PRODUCTS CAN BE DONE OUTSIDE THE FACTORY. Only the factory will be allowed to do ANY repairs to BK products. I updated my panel when my EFIS 40 failed and BK wanted in the neighborhood of $!7,000 to fix it. The value of BK products just took a nosedive with this ridiculous act. All of us with BK Autopilots are in trouble. If any servo goes out, back to BK. If any AP computer goes out, back to BK. Better save up for those repairs because they are going to rip us off. Hopefully, there will be new choices for autopilots on the market soon so we can trash the BK autopilots and tell them where they can go.... PS How are we going to get our APs aligned with no manuals or permission to even to it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsengle Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 GrrrSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfather Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 What? Why would any shop comply with this mandate? BK is a dying company with nothing new to offer. I would hord all the parts I could... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Because repair stations are required to use the most up to date manuals. BK makes a pencil swipe and what they have is useless and cannot be used. Quite a few shops make a living on the bench repairing these ancient boxes. Too bad BK had to have one last f&^t before the company keels over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 It's probably a condition to maintain a sales dealership. Not sure it can be enforced for shops that are appropriately rated by the FAA and have manuals that match the vintage of the radios. Ironically, Narco had similar policy. I don't think it served them well. Shops that had the manuals and stock of parts kept repairing them and dropped the dealership. There are still a few shops repairing them, and Narco is no more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 BK can release a new update to their manuals, and not distribute them. That would effectively make repair work illegal, and a repair station can do nothing about it without risking loss of their certificates. If we're lucky there might be some independent techs that might be willing to repair stuff hangar-fairy style, but I wouldn't count on it.I think this move signals BK's surrender of the GA market because it will trigger replacement of radios vs repairs. Maybe they can get by extorting A/P owners, but soon we'll have options there too.It also devalues planes with their equipment IMO.And as already mentioned, it is a total dick move just like it was when Narco did it. We all know how well it worked for them.Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Other Red Baron Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Not sure if it is against the rules to mention other forums on here but the Beechcraft folks are talking about this on their forum as well. They sound equally happy... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 not against the rules... BT is a great forum with lots of knowledge over there on many topics we care about. But the best Mooney hangout is here! Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 These guys are going to do well as a result of this move: http://tkmavionics.com/ https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/march/26/tkm-avionics-offers-new-replacement-radios Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfather Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 The problem is really the AP systems on some of our aircraft. BK could start charging 5-10k just to repair the components... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 9 hours ago, KSMooniac said: BK can release a new update to their manuals, and not distribute them. That would effectively make repair work illegal, and a repair station can do nothing about it without risking loss of their certificates. If we're lucky there might be some independent techs that might be willing to repair stuff hangar-fairy style, but I wouldn't count on it. I think this move signals BK's surrender of the GA market because it will trigger replacement of radios vs repairs. Maybe they can get by extorting A/P owners, but soon we'll have options there too. It also devalues planes with their equipment IMO. And as already mentioned, it is a total dick move just like it was when Narco did it. We all know how well it worked for them. Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk I don't disagree that the best practice is to use the latest manuals and very likely an avionics shop repair station certificate pushes them that way too, but there have been some recent rulings regarding aircraft maintenance manuals that indicate that only an FAA AD can mandate the use of a newer maintenance procedure. I can't say it applies directly in this case, but I'm not sure why it wouldn't. I suspect that many of these manuals have not been updated in years and it would be costly to update all of them anyway. As usual, it will likely come down to individual repair stations, FSDOs and FAA personel. Repair stations could also write their own methods and get it approved. This may allow them to do some routine repairs. The fallout would occur when unique parts dry up, but there is always the used market to pillage parts from. Narco is a good example. Many have continued to operate Narco radios without their support for years. Attrition will take some out, but the used market will supply stock. This can be a goldmine for folks like Alan and folks like him can keep those in need flying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Browncbr1 Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 What cronyism.. Can't develop a competitive product to attract business, so regulate to force business. This kind of BS hurts the whole industry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob - S50 Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 On the Cessna forum someone posted a list of components that cannot be repaired in the field. I looked through the list for parts that we have in our plane. It appeared that the KA51B, KFC295, KA285, KC290, and our KNS80 could still be worked on. Of course the KI525A and KI256 were on the list so we would have to do the exchange with King. If and when those parts break, and depending on what they charge, we will have to look at all our options. Might include replacing the KFC200 with a Trio (if it is certified for our plane by then). We will see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrixxer Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 12 hours ago, bradp said: These guys are going to do well as a result of this move: http://tkmavionics.com/ https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/march/26/tkm-avionics-offers-new-replacement-radios That UX on the MX155 tho... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradp Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 What's a UX? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerodon Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Here's the problem. When you are large corporate entity serving military, airline and corporate aircraft: you have to provide high end reliable equipment and decent repair facilities. The customers have large revenue or service requirements and the cost of repairs are commensurate with the size of the organization. Now try to add 'general aviation' into that mix, the end users are often flying schools, small business owners, or individuals without the budget to fit into this cost structure. I know of one small shop that has an incredible array of spares, including switches, displays, meter movements, connectors etc. He paid $10's of thousands for this, and is one of the few shops around that has the capability to open up a radio, trouble shoot, replace components and IC's etc and get the customer going. He does not make a lot of money and most of his customers are just trying to get another cycle out of a comm, nav or transponder and avoid the cost of a new radio and install. Now his business is wiped out, and BK wants his stock back to boot? This applies to planes as well - Textron have jacked up the prices of replacement parts to insane levels on Cessna and Beech. I'm sure Aviall will do the same to Piper. Fortunately there are a lot of used parts on the market, and companies like MacFarlane who are doing a fine job with PMA'd replacements. This does not apply to Piper Super Cubs. You can buy ever single part from 2 or three different supplies at what I would call reasonable prices. These are relatively small privately owned companies that are making a good old fashioned 'honest living' - fair prices for good quality parts. I realize the world is changing, and a lot of the thinking is driven by the computer and electronics industry. Next years iPhone is going to be better than last years, at the same price. A 5 year old iPhone is almost redundant because the new ones are so much better. A ten year old phone, who has one? Service charges are high (the fixed price quote to fix my 5 year old iMac was about 50% of the price of a new one. So its an easy decision to start again. Its hard to accept this type of thinking with avionics. First, the cost is so much more. Then they cost a whole lot to install. And they become redundant / not serviced so much quicker. Some are easier to replace than others, But I sure am worried about my KFC200 autopilot. I think it was a $40,000 option on my 1980 Seneca, and is probably a $100,000 system in a new plane? So I can understand that the manufacturers think $5k or $10k for a flat rate repair on the main computer is reasonable. But these numbers do not fit into my budget / value of flying, and there is no easy replacement. Another nail. Aerodon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Ok - well how are those Trutrak and Trio STCs coming? I think a lot of us will be buying that stuff asap if it becomes available. I do not take kindly to extortion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsengle Posted May 6, 2017 Report Share Posted May 6, 2017 Don't believe those are attitude based / flight director autopilots like a lot of our king gear. But want to know more...Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PTK Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Well, aren't other manufacturers doing the same thing? Doesn't Garmin for example require us to send their equipment back to them through a dealer for factory repairs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carqwik Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Class action lawsuit ahead... I see a Federal Court agreeing that great harm results from this across a broad class...which was not duly notified or given time to adjust. Hence, the Judge will rule that B/K must provide manuals and support field repairs for a minimum of ten years...at a fair and equitable rate. If not, my panel becomes almost worthless... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 10 minutes ago, carqwik said: Class action lawsuit ahead... I see a Federal Court agreeing that great harm results from this across a broad class...which was not duly notified or given time to adjust. Hence, the Judge will rule that B/K must provide manuals and support field repairs for a minimum of ten years...at a fair and equitable rate. If not, my panel becomes almost worthless... Don't forget the companies such as autopilots central they are contriving to put out of business by leveraging federal regulation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfather Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Just now, aviatoreb said: Don't forget the companies such as autopilots central they are contriving to put out of business by leveraging federal regulation. This is the real problem I have with the way BK is going about this... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyboy0681 Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 I also read the BeechTalk forum on the subject and instead of frank discussions about the situation, it digressed into pages of nonsense such as what kind of work a repair station can legally do, then it turned in another direction when someone commented that adding as simple change to a repair manual by the manufacturer which results in a revision can shutdown a repair station unless they have a copy of that repair manual, then someone interjected their opinion that the previous commenter was wrong and a repair station can work on it even if they don't have a current revision. It turned into a total mess. Like Don Kaye and Aerodon said, I'm concerned most about my autopilot, the KAP 150. If it fails and needs a repair, such as my blown capacitor a few months ago, then I'm absolutely sunk. I sleep well at night knowing that outfits such as Autopilot Central and Midcontinent are out there servicing these units and have an ample supply of parts. Take that away and we are in deep trouble. While I'm encouraged by new autopilots introduced, I'm not holding my breath that they will be available anytime soon for our fleet. I can (sort of) live with the other King equipment not being serviceable since there are viable (but expensive) replacements solutions, such as the Aspen. This is depressing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 Anyone hear from Bob Bramble lately? Wondering what his thoughts are. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted May 7, 2017 Report Share Posted May 7, 2017 42 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said: I also read the BeechTalk forum on the subject and instead of frank discussions about the situation, it digressed into pages of nonsense such as what kind of work a repair station can legally do, then it turned in another direction when someone commented that adding as simple change to a repair manual by the manufacturer which results in a revision can shutdown a repair station unless they have a copy of that repair manual, then someone interjected their opinion that the previous commenter was wrong and a repair station can work on it even if they don't have a current revision. It turned into a total mess. Like Don Kaye and Aerodon said, I'm concerned most about my autopilot, the KAP 150. If it fails and needs a repair, such as my blown capacitor a few months ago, then I'm absolutely sunk. I sleep well at night knowing that outfits such as Autopilot Central and Midcontinent are out there servicing these units and have an ample supply of parts. Take that away and we are in deep trouble. While I'm encouraged by new autopilots introduced, I'm not holding my breath that they will be available anytime soon for our fleet. I can (sort of) live with the other King equipment not being serviceable since there are viable (but expensive) replacements solutions, such as the Aspen. This is depressing. It depends on how long your (my) autopilot lasts and what becomes available. Luckily there is likely to be other options soon. Trio , trutrek. Will garmin have an offering? Stec already has some offerings. I am very unlikely to send any money to bk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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