GNS530W va GTN650

[chrixxer]

Daydreaming my eventual "perfect panel." The GTN650 is about the same price as the bigger, discontinued but still supported, GNS530W. This is going in an E. I mostly fly behind 430s and know it well; the Arrow I rent has a 530W and I really like the arc view (CDI and moving map on the same screen). Great for SA. (I'll also have an iPad and Stratus or something equivalent (GTX345? L3 9000+? Want GPS, ADS-B weather + traffic, & ideally AHRS, to the iPad; have that in the Arrow with the 345...)

 

I like the idea of brand new tech but I'm not sold on the touch screen, in turbulence, in an E.

 

Likewise, I like the display modes of the 530W, but not sure about sacrificing that much space in a small panel stack...

Edited May 2, 2017 by chrixxer

[Zwaustin]

Hope this helps your day dreaming ideas. I thoroughly enjoy flying behind it albeit not a Mooney. My opinion is the touch screens are not an issue, you will get used to them in bumpy weather. They also have plenty of edge to support your hand on. Flite electronics did the work in Addison. 

[kpaul]

My M20F has the GTN650, the majority of the PC-12s I fly have dual 430W, but a few have the 530W so I have experience with all three of them.

You will have more real estate on the 530W, but as you have said the 650 is new and still in production so dropping 10AMU on it might make more sense.  the 650 screen is larger than the 430 since there is only a single knob on the right, they pushed the screen pretty close to the edge.  You can also continue to practice the know ninja skills you have learned with the 430/530 on the 650.

It took me a few flights to feel comfortable with the 650 and the touch screen, and initially I though I would have preferred the 430 I was used to.  Now it is very simple to use, yes turbulence can make it interesting, but the knob is there for the rare cases you just cant keep your hand in place.

As for space there are a few C/Es on this board that are sporting the GTN750.  With the 750s ability to remotely control your transponder and audio panel you can gain back anything you have lost.

[flyboy0681]

Given those choices, I would go with the 530W along with Flight Stream 210. This combo gives you the big screen while allowing the iPad to create flight plans which include airways.

I have personally not encountered any problems with the touchscreen of the 750 (although the 650 is a different animal). But I will be honest that there were times when things were so bumpy that I couldn't quite hit the area of the screen that I desired, but the software prevents the user from punching in more than one command at the same time. And when things get really hairy, I resort to good 'ol knob turning.

[chrixxer]

3 minutes ago, kpaul said:

As for space there are a few C/Es on this board that are sporting the GTN750.  With the 750s ability to remotely control your transponder and audio panel you can gain back anything you have lost.

Thought about the 750 for that reason, but (a) it starts getting really spendy; and (b) I'm wary of that level of integration vis-a-vis single point of failure and future "per component" replacement/upgrades.

[kpaul]

Just now, chrixxer said:

Thought about the 750 for that reason, but (a) it starts getting really spendy; and (b) I'm wary of that level of integration vis-a-vis single point of failure and future "per component" replacement/upgrades.

You mean you do not want to put in 2 X the value of your plane in avionics?  I'm with you. 

I was lucky mine came with the 650, I do really like it and the screen provides a lot of detail with moving map, weather, traffic depending what is hooked to it.  Yes a large screen is sometimes nice, but it is very functional.

[Jerry 5TJ]

17 minutes ago, kpaul said:

You mean you do not want to put in 2 X the value of your plane in avionics?  ....

Maybe you're looking at it backwards.  I feel I bought a highly functional & modern Avionics suite. It came with an Ovation airframe attached. 

Quips aside:  A 530W and FlightStream 210 have a lot of functional capabilities for the price.  

[Zwaustin]

Between just those two options I would go GTN650 all day. I had a 430w and had no issues prior to going dual 750's but once I switched I realized how much easier and more intuitive it was to have the touch screens and newer tech. My regular flight plan from Austin to Arizona now took less than half the time to enter. With a 650 you can get the flight stream 510 for a tad more than the 210 but requires no install time, just pop the card in and go and it will likely be cheaper in the long run by eliminating the install time. I am supposed to pick up a FS510 card tomorrow in New Braunfels so will report back on how it pans out.

[Godfather]

As much as I like the larger screens I'd go for the ifd440 or 650. Probably be around 13k installed. Make sure you have a good quality backup nav/com or at least a digital com unit. I'd go in the order of gps/nav/com, new panel, transponder/audio panel, g5's...

[chrixxer]

7 minutes ago, Godfather said:

As much as I like the larger screens I'd go for the ifd440 or 650. Probably be around 13k installed. Make sure you have a good quality backup nav/com or at least a digital com unit. I'd go in the order of gps/nav/com, new panel, transponder/audio panel, g5's...

I flew behind an IFD540 yesterday and thought the interface was too jumbled. Kind of surprised me, as I really like the Entegra r8 PFD/MFD I fly in the SR22 (except the approach plates on the MFD; I just use my iPad rather than cycle through the four low-res screens constantly). When I do this, definitely going Garmin, for all the integration.

Though it looks like I'm stuck with an Aspen or G500 for EFIS, the G5 won't provide heading data to the S-TEC.

Plan is, in order:

1. Weather stripping for the radio access panels ($15?)
2. Card compass (~$400)
3. GPS/NAV/COMM (budget $10K + install)
4. Panel redo (six-pack layout), with plans to accommodate all the below ($4K?)
5. Audio panel to replace TMA-340 and PM2000 (if only because I've heard it makes more sense to do this early; otherwise the wiring becomes nightmarish) ($3000 installed?)
6. SL30 or (more probably) GNC255 ($4-6K installed?)
7. GTX345 + Flightstream ($7K?)
8. EFIS ($8K if I can find a used one, installed?)
9. EI CGR-30P

Not 100% sure on the order of things. The plane has a digital EGT of unknown provenance, and the original Garwin 6-pack and other engine instruments.

How useful is the storm scope anymore?

 

[Godfather]

Looks like a good approach. A lot of the dollar amounts will be dramatically lower if done at the same time.  My estimates:

2. Used -$200

3. 13k for a new unit installed

4. Keep it simple, a member on here could help 2k

5. Used 340. 1400 installed 

6. Used sl30 installed $3500

7. 345 only go without the flighhtstream

8. Expensive...11-12k

9. These can be expensive to install but a great option w/ flying rebates. 

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, chrixxer said:

Thought about the 750 for that reason, but (a) it starts getting really spendy; and (b) I'm wary of that level of integration vis-a-vis single point of failure and future "per component" replacement/upgrades.

Another thing to consider if you have other glass in the cockpit (ex. Aspen or G500), the 650 may make more sense than the 750. If I didn't install the Aspens in my plane, I would have installed the 750. 

I am adding the Flightstream 510 to the 650 and there will be even less reasons to look at the 650's display.

[Oscar Avalle]

10 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Another thing to consider if you have other glass in the cockpit (ex. Aspen or G500), the 650 may make more sense than the 750. If I didn't install the Aspens in my plane, I would have installed the 750. 

I am adding the Flightstream 510 to the 650 and there will be even less reasons to look at the 650's display.

I agree, the display of the 650 can become rather crowed. I would go for a 650 and a Flightstream 510 and a mini Ipad. The 650 will give you great functionalities and the ipad a nice screen.

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, chrixxer said:

EI CGR-30P

Not 100% sure on the order of things. The plane has a digital EGT of unknown provenance, and the original Garwin 6-pack and other engine instruments.

How useful is the storm scope anymore?

 

With your comment about the EGT in the plane, I would likely push the CGR-30P up closer to the top of the list. You will find several threads on here where an engine monitor is highly recommended as one of the first items to add to your plane if it does not have one. Reasons abound in those discussions.

If you plan on flying much IFR, I would look to get a storm scope tied into the EFIS/GPS of your choice. I did not see anything in your list about weather but expect you will use ADS-B In for it. Great stuff, but sometimes a bit stale. A storm scope can help you avoid problems just behind the next cloud or where your ADS-B weather did not show a cell at the time it was sent. But if regular IFR is not planned, it would be fairly optional.

[chrixxer]

1 hour ago, Godfather said:

Looks like a good approach. A lot of the dollar amounts will be dramatically lower if done at the same time.

<snip>
5. Used 340. 1400 installed 

6. Used sl30 installed $3500

7. 345 only go without the flighhtstream

8. Expensive...11-12k

9. These can be expensive to install but a great option w/ flying rebates. 

 

Yeah, I may have to suffer the bitter pill of waiting to do most if not all of it at once, and save the cash...

The panel update, engine monitor, and 430W are probably priorities, given the LPV that just went online at my home airport and the general worthlessness of the VOR approach when we have our seemingly omnipresent marine layer ("June Gloom").

My avionics guy recommends the PMA8000bt over the 340, for not much more money. Maybe the PMA450. With audio jacks going the way of the dinosaur on consumer electronics, being able to pump iTunes through Bluetooth has a certain appeal. (I know there are $30 adapters on Amazon, but that's one more battery to worry about, one more source of potential interference, etc.)

The GNC is a more capable unit than the SL30 and available new, but I'm not convinced the $1500 price delta is worth it, as a COM2/NAV2. What common failure points are there on the SL30? As a somewhat orphaned (Apollo, now owned by Garmin) product, what's the support like?

I really like the GTX345 (fly behind one in the Arrow), but not the $5K price tag.

Why not the Flightstream? For another couple hundred bucks, being able to input the flight plan from the iPad straight into the GPS, with airways etc., seems like a must-have, and that it would pay for itself pretty quickly in fuel savings vs. manually spinning the FPL in during run-up. (Call up clearance on the handheld, copy it, punch it into the iPad, fire up the plane, AVIONICS: ON, transfer ...)

#8: My boss (who has an Aspen in his 340) says they pop up regularly on Wentworth etc for $5-6K; how involved is installation?

#9: Fly-in?

 

[chrixxer]

1 hour ago, Oscar Avalle said:

I would go for a 650 and a Flightstream 510 and a mini Ipad. The 650 will give you great functionalities and the ipad a nice screen.

Already have an iPad mini 2 32GB, that I keep dedicated to flying. (Have a Pro 9.7 I use for my "other iPad stuff," and it also has a copy of ForeFlight for flight planning / weather beforehand, and as a backup to the mini -- I have RAM cradles for both, for in the cockpit).

[carusoam]

Fear of touch screens in turbulence must have a name...

Touching the screen once to enter a way point is way better than fiddling a knob or two endlessly in the same turbulence.

it isn't the device that is challenged.  It is the pointer way out on the end of the arm. That is the same pointer for the touch screen as it is the twister of the knobs.

GTN logic is modern and more user friendly.  GNS logic is limited by its computer strength.

PP thoughts only.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited May 2, 2017 by carusoam

[chrixxer]

33 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

With your comment about the EGT in the plane, I would likely push the CGR-30P up closer to the top of the list. You will find several threads on here where an engine monitor is highly recommended as one of the first items to add to your plane if it does not have one. Reasons abound in those discussions.

If you plan on flying much IFR, I would look to get a storm scope tied into the EFIS/GPS of your choice. I did not see anything in your list about weather but expect you will use ADS-B In for it. Great stuff, but sometimes a bit stale. A storm scope can help you avoid problems just behind the next cloud or where your ADS-B weather did not show a cell at the time it was sent. But if regular IFR is not planned, it would be fairly optional.

Duly noted re the engine monitor.

I'll be flying IFR, but more often than not in and around SoCal, where we don't get much in the way of thunderstorms, but we do get a lot of low layers, clouds, etc. It's already got a stormscope (not sure which one, or how well it works, yet).

 

[chrixxer]

17 minutes ago, carusoam said:

GNS logic is limited by its computer strength.

Hey, now, the GNS is a beast. It's got not one, but two 386-class CPUs, and a cool "DOS-inspired" UX that's totally of the moment, what with the hipster retro craze...

[Godfather]

36 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

 

Yeah, I may have to suffer the bitter pill of waiting to do most if not all of it at once, and save the cash...

The panel update, engine monitor, and 430W are probably priorities, given the LPV that just went online at my home airport and the general worthlessness of the VOR approach when we have our seemingly omnipresent marine layer ("June Gloom").

My avionics guy recommends the PMA8000bt over the 340, for not much more money. Maybe the PMA450. With audio jacks going the way of the dinosaur on consumer electronics, being able to pump iTunes through Bluetooth has a certain appeal. (I know there are $30 adapters on Amazon, but that's one more battery to worry about, one more source of potential interference, etc.)

The GNC is a more capable unit than the SL30 and available new, but I'm not convinced the $1500 price delta is worth it, as a COM2/NAV2. What common failure points are there on the SL30? As a somewhat orphaned (Apollo, now owned by Garmin) product, what's the support like?

I really like the GTX345 (fly behind one in the Arrow), but not the $5K price tag.

Why not the Flightstream? For another couple hundred bucks, being able to input the flight plan from the iPad straight into the GPS, with airways etc., seems like a must-have, and that it would pay for itself pretty quickly in fuel savings vs. manually spinning the FPL in during run-up. (Call up clearance on the handheld, copy it, punch it into the iPad, fire up the plane, AVIONICS: ON, transfer ...)

#8: My boss (who has an Aspen in his 340) says they pop up regularly on Wentworth etc for $5-6K; how involved is installation?

#9: Fly-in?

 

Panel update, engine monitor, and 430w would take you a long way. I've seen the 340's and 8000bt both go for around 800 used and I think they use the same rack. The SL30 is a great unit and fairly durable. I've noticed the SL40 com only goes for around 1k if you need to save some money. The flight stream would be nice down the road. With the newer gps units you can enter FP very quickly and on all the units you can save the common routes. I'd be surprised if you could get a used Aspen installed / integrated for under 10k. I've also noticed some people have lots of problems with Aspen units and some are trouble free...I'd want to avoid a problematic unit. 

[chrixxer]

The one thing I'm nervous about is relying on the vacuum instruments for too long. I've been on an IFR flight, at night, over mountains, when the DG quit. Made it home with the Whiskey compass, VORs, and my iPad + Stratus. I could probably survive loss of the AI / DG at the same time (I certainly practice partial panel), but in the soup, it would suck.

Might be worth picking up a Stratus 2 or 2S with the AHRS, as a stop-gap, just to have the backup. Can always turn around and sell it at not much of a loss once the panel has that functionality built in.

[gsxrpilot]

8 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Maybe you're looking at it backwards.  I feel I bought a highly functional & modern Avionics suite. It came with an Ovation airframe attached. 

Too late now, but it's ALWAYS cheaper to buy the plane with the avionics you want rather than upgrade later. Unless of course, and sometimes, that plane doesn't exist. I'm in the middle of a major avionics upgrade right now but it's because I can and I want to... not an effort to save money.

[Jerry 5TJ]

3 hours ago, chrixxer said:

The one thing I'm nervous about is relying on the vacuum instruments for too long. I've been on an IFR flight, at night, over mountains, when the DG quit.....

Yes, I am glad to have shed the vacuum system and all the mechanical gyros.  With three solid state AHRS I can quickly tell if one goes south which to ignore.  Given the cost of a Stratus, or of a FlightStream 210, a second (or in my case a third AHRS) is inexpensive today.  

 

[chrixxer]

28 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Too late now, but it's ALWAYS cheaper to buy the plane with the avionics you want rather than upgrade later. Unless of course, and sometimes, that plane doesn't exist. I'm in the middle of a major avionics upgrade right now but it's because I can and I want to... not an effort to save money.

I've been looking for a while, and only one plane popped up that was kinda close to how I would have configured it (GTN650 and GTX330ES), but even then I would have lost out on functionality I want (GTX345 ForeFlight integration) for something that was "too good to toss."

And for what I'm spending on 4BE, I can spend quite a bit on avionics before it stings. Nice thing about a plane with a totally obsolete panel and a realistic seller...  

 

[chrixxer]

2 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

Yes, I am glad to have shed the vacuum system

 

I'm stuck with the vacuum system for the side step, unless I'm mistaken, but otherwise, yeah, I'd rip it out first chance I got.