My new E

[jetdriven]

You know Clarence, some people do not have a conscience. I have two emails personally corresponding with the guy on two separate  airplanes he had for sale. One was submerged under flood waters for several days and the sat in a salvage yard for weeks afterwards and the other one had crashed on a street and the wing was ripped in half.  Both of which he said he had no damage history and never been in an accident or incident or anything of the sort of when I'm sitting there looking at photos of it. So I don't see any signs of remorse or redemption here. However if other people are made aware of this maybe we will have less people crashing on the street at night. 

 And I never said that it was caused by that. But airplanes don't just stop running suddenly without some kind a reason that is a certainty. Whether it's a manufacturing defect or whatever but when the thing is crashed, totaled, salvaged,  then recycled I'm going to look there first. His business bottle seems to be people are looking for a deal and there must be one born every minute. I know caveat emptor applies here. But airplanes are very complex machines And the buyer depends greatly on some level veracity of the seller to make sure you didn't get an airplane that was submerged underwater.. you can't inspect that. 

I did read your Canadian aviation regulation about submerged airplanes, that is actually quite interesting.   However I don't think I can return an aircraft a service based on a Canadian far. But I do see the value of immediately fishing out a flipped seaplane hanging out to dry in there inspecting it properly perhaps yeah I like that. But what if it set underwater for several days and then was towed to a salvage yard and set for three or four or five weeks before it was taken possession of by the buyer then what Do you do. I did find Piper  document from 1972 and also a Lycoming one.   Sayd basically to inspect everything tear it all apart and go through all the wiring all the harnesses all of the instruments. Replace all circuit breakers, replace all instruments, replace all radios, remove the fuel tanks and send those off. Send engine off. Very extensive, quite extensive list. Lycoming was a little bit more direct. Disassemble every single piece inspect it all and then reassemble it. Perhsps that's why it was totaled it was beyond economical repair. What do you think about letting it sit in the salvage yard for three weeks  and then signing off and logs have no mention of a flood at all. How do you feel about that ? 

[PTK]

44 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

...I'm not trying to defend his actions of almost 20 years ago, but do you not suppose that he wears that mistake daily?  Every time he looks in the mirror he sees the guy who's judgement resulted in death of his son?

Clarence

 

I don’t know what he sees in the mirror. That’s between him and his God. What I do know is that I have read that NTSB report several times and I get the chills every time I read it. If someone will send their own son to his death like that how much regard do they really have for anyone else?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

You know Clarence, some people do not have a conscience. I have two emails personally corresponding with the guy on two separate  airplanes he had for sale. One was submerged under flood waters for several days and the sat in a salvage yard for weeks afterwards and the other one had crashed on a street and the wing was ripped in half.  Both of which he said he had no damage history and never been in an accident or incident or anything of the sort of when I'm sitting there looking at photos of it. So I don't see any signs of remorse or redemption here. However if other people are made aware of this maybe we will have less people crashing on the street at night. 

 And I never said that it was caused by that. But airplanes don't just stop running suddenly without some kind a reason that is a certainty. Whether it's a manufacturing defect or whatever but when the thing is crashed, totaled, salvaged,  then recycled I'm going to look there first. His business bottle seems to be people are looking for a deal and there must be one born every minute. I know caveat emptor applies here. But airplanes are very complex machines And the buyer depends greatly on some level veracity of the seller to make sure you didn't get an airplane that was submerged underwater.. you can't inspect that. 

I did read your Canadian aviation regulation about submerged airplanes, that is actually quite interesting.   However I don't think I can return an aircraft a service based on a Canadian far. But I do see the value of immediately fishing out a flipped seaplane hanging out to dry in there inspecting it properly perhaps yeah I like that. But what if it set underwater for several days and then was towed to a salvage yard and set for three or four or five weeks before it was taken possession of by the buyer then what Do you do. I did find Piper  document from 1972 and also a Lycoming one.   Sayd basically to inspect everything tear it all apart and go through all the wiring all the harnesses all of the instruments. Replace all circuit breakers, replace all instruments, replace all radios, remove the fuel tanks and send those off. Send engine off. Very extensive, quite extensive list. Lycoming was a little bit more direct. Disassemble every single piece inspect it all and then reassemble it. Perhsps that's why it was totaled it was beyond economical repair. What do you think about letting it sit in the salvage yard for three weeks  and then signing off and logs have no mention of a flood at all. How do you feel about that ? 

I'd never suggested that you could apply Canadian regulation to return a US registered airplane to service. I posted it to show that there is a way to return a submerged aircraft to service and make it airworthy, when you were saying the opposite.  

Economics is not the debate, an insurance company may scrap it because it's in their own best interest, that doesn't make it unairworthy. Many airframes have been saved and returned to airworthiness safely.  Much depends on the techniques and methods used. 

As to the seller, I don't know him and have never had any dealings with him, but even a murderer gets paroled at some point.

Perhaps the  real axe to grind is with the FAA and the insurance companies and their treatment of a writen off airframes.  

Clarence

 

[Godfather]

55 minutes ago, PTK said:

I don’t know what he sees in the mirror. That’s between him and his God. What I do know is that I have read that NTSB report several times and I get the chills every time I read it. If someone will send their own son to his death like that how much regard do they really have for anyone else?

I think this is going a little too far...

I do believe that everyone has a choice, especially a buyer of pleasure vehicles, to make the best informed decision they can. Every buyer has a price point and tries to obtain the best value per dollar.  This particular aircraft was sold at market value for less than most E models of that vintage.  Planes with damage history that replaced parts with a reman or sent it to a well known shop for an iran (with extensive paperwork) will command a higher sale price. 

[chrixxer]

I'll let y'all know when I know more about what caused it. I don't think the prop strike (from what I was told, it was on a snowy runway and the snow collapsed (?), and was a pretty minor event in the life of the plane) was a direct cause, and the person you all are referring to is not the A&P IA who signed off on that work (though as y'all point out, that documentation was minimal).

Anyway, I'm looking at a different plane now, that seems to be my dream plane (a manual gear 221 ES), and I'll have LASAR or similar do the PPI (it's a west coast plane). It needs a bit of avionics work (and by that I don't mean "crappy Terra radios that are going to fail almost immediately," I mean, "non-WAAS approach GPS that needs to be upgraded, and while we're in there might as well install a GTX-345 for ADS-B Out compliance") but otherwise appears to be turn-key.

I really liked BE, but it was an old plane, a project plane. We'll see what comes out of the inspection. I've been working closely with the NTSB, as the whole "falling out of the sky" thing doesn't make sense. I was logging every aspect of the operation of that plane closely (because it was an unknown quantity, and my first plane, and I'm a relatively inexperienced pilot (my PPL hasn't turned 2 yet), and ...).

[PTK]

6 hours ago, chrixxer said:

I'll let y'all know when I know more about what caused it. I don't think the prop strike (from what I was told, it was on a snowy runway and the snow collapsed (?), and was a pretty minor event in the life of the plane) was a direct cause, and the person you all are referring to is not the A&P IA who signed off on that work (though as y'all point out, that documentation was minimal)....

A cursory review of the literature indicates there may be a difference of opinion.

"...you could have a time bomb engine with a prop strike in, say, a snow bank, where no damage occurs to the prop but the engine is stopped in less than one rpm (FAA definition), or even simply looses rpm (manufacturer definition), and the owner elects to do nothing (other than sell the plane)."

Lycoming's view,

"...Lycoming, in their prop-strike Service Bulletin 533A, takes the approach that the safest procedure is to take the engine apart for inspection following any incident involving propeller blade damage.

However, they have the caveat that the inspecting mechanic may override that position and return the engine to service without disassembly and inspection if he or she feels that it is the prudent and responsible thing to do. In light of the preceding information, would you be comfortable doing that? How much liability insurance do you have?..."

TCM's view,

"...Following any propeller strike, complete disassembly and inspection of all rotating engine components is mandatory and must be accomplished prior to further flight. Inspect all engine driven accessories in accordance with the manufacturer’s maintenance instructions.”

Source: "The Prop Strike/Sudden Stop", Light Plane Maintenance, Dec, 2012.

Problem is Lycoming places a lot of trust on the mechanic's opinion and judgement which leaves too much wiggle room. Add this to a total lack of documentation, the mechanic(s) involved quickly lose their credibility.

[Guest]

Much is being made of the recording of the work completed on this engine.

Question for the A&P's and IA's in the group.  What are the FAA requirements for retention of records such as the 8130's if provided with the parts?  Who has to keep them, for how long etc? The Owner of the maintainer?  Where are they to be kept?

What is required for the log book entry?  Most US log books are a joke and are no much bigger than a scratch pad and don't leave a lot of room for details.

Please reference the applicable FAR, I'd like to read it.

Clarence

[MB65E]

The 8130's depend on who you ask. 15 years ago, they were tossed along with the packing sheets. Now each screw can have a 8130. I try to ask for and save every 8130 I get. However, when you replace all the side panels or belly panel screws and you now have 200 8130 for each screw makes you think we've gone crazy!! "Yellow tags" are now almost gone as well as the phrase. The 8130 pretty much is the standard now. 

Pete, it's a shame about lightbplane maintenance. I have subscribed to it on and off since college. I still get the companies IFR script, but the LPM was really neat. They canceled the publication about a year ago, I really enjoyed it!!

I'll try and look up our requirements, from what I understand it is still  vague .

-Matt

[Marauder]

27 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Much is being made of the recording of the work completed on this engine.

Question for the A&P's and IA's in the group.  What are the FAA requirements for retention of records such as the 8130's if provided with the parts?  Who has to keep them, for how long etc? The Owner of the maintainer?  Where are they to be kept?

What is required for the log book entry?  Most US log books are a joke and are no much bigger than a scratch pad and don't leave a lot of room for details.

Please reference the applicable FAR, I'd like to read it.

Clarence

Not an AP or IA, but I deal with federal regulations on a regular basis, I suspect the FAA does have a record retention policy. They have one for retaining their records (which most likely contains documents we submit). 

https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/1022926

I also sent a request to the FAA for my retained records and I received back a CD with stuff from all the way back to before I owned the plane. 

As for maintenance records, when I bought my then 16 year Mooney I received several of those books from the plane’s first day. In the mid 1990s, my mechanic moved me over to a binder. It is rare today that any shop doesn’t provide a sticker type record for the work they perform. The binder format leaves plenty of room for all the details.

 

 

[MB65E]

Those 2 orders in you link appear to be  canceled in 2013... interesting. 

-Matt

[bradp]

Does a retention requirement exist for a repair station ?  Work order numbers are often referenced - and those details would be useless unless they had a retention requirement attached to them. 

You can always call the mechanic... find out what was done.  

[chrixxer]

4 hours ago, PTK said:

A cursory review of the literature indicates there may be a difference of opinion.

"...you could have a time bomb engine with a prop strike in, say, a snow bank, where no damage occurs to the prop but the engine is stopped in less than one rpm (FAA definition), or even simply looses rpm (manufacturer definition), and the owner elects to do nothing (other than sell the plane)."

Lycoming's view,

"...Lycoming, in their prop-strike Service Bulletin 533A, takes the approach that the safest procedure is to take the engine apart for inspection following any incident involving propeller blade damage.

However, they have the caveat that the inspecting mechanic may override that position and return the engine to service without disassembly and inspection if he or she feels that it is the prudent and responsible thing to do. In light of the preceding information, would you be comfortable doing that? How much liability insurance do you have?..."

TCM's view,

"...Following any propeller strike, complete disassembly and inspection of all rotating engine components is mandatory and must be accomplished prior to further flight. Inspect all engine driven accessories in accordance with the manufacturer’s maintenance instructions.”

Source: "The Prop Strike/Sudden Stop", Light Plane Maintenance, Dec, 2012.

Problem is Lycoming places a lot of trust on the mechanic's opinion and judgement which leaves too much wiggle room. Add this to a total lack of documentation, the mechanic(s) involved quickly lose their credibility.

FWIW prop was replaced with a low time (80 hour) prop from another E.

[N601RX]

Several years ago I worked as an engineer at a large repair station/component manufacturer. If I remember correctly we were required to keep our work orders for 2 years before discarding them. They were always destroyed as soon as legally allowed. 

I personally would not place much value on an 8130 as long as there is another record of what was done and where it was done. It's just a piece of paper that is signed by a DAR after the work is finished who wasn't personally involved in the repair or overhaul of the part. You are often charged extra for it. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by N601RX

[takair]

4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Much is being made of the recording of the work completed on this engine.

Question for the A&P's and IA's in the group.  What are the FAA requirements for retention of records such as the 8130's if provided with the parts?  Who has to keep them, for how long etc? The Owner of the maintainer?  Where are they to be kept?

What is required for the log book entry?  Most US log books are a joke and are no much bigger than a scratch pad and don't leave a lot of room for details.

Please reference the applicable FAR, I'd like to read it.

Clarence

Clarence

Long time A&P/IA working for an OEM now in engineering.  I believe the records must be kept for 5 years, this is typically written into the ops spec.  However, in this case we don't even know if a repair station did the work.....in fact, if they did, it should have been logged as such.  You yourself just said that most US log books are a joke, so I think you acknowledge it is hard to decipher what was done in many cases.  I don't disagree.  Like a lost log book, I think bad entries depreciate the value of some work accomplished and thus the plane. i have often come across entries that are vague purely to mislead.  I agree it is speculation in this case if the failure is in any way related to the work or lack of.  However, the log entry does not comply with the AD.  AD 2004-10-14 references SB475C which specifically talks about the wording of the log entry and some key data to include:  

6. A logbook entry, specifying the final bolt torque, verifying that the lockplate was properly bent in place against the bolt head and that the inspections and rework required by Lycoming Service Bulletin No. 475C were accomplished, should be made and signed by an authorized inspection representative. 

Picky, maybe, but an AD is a US regulation.The log entry also does hint at engine removal since they say "reinstalled". (in reference to your previous post that this is not required).  I want to emphasize that in my case I am not speculating that this is the cause, but to me more information would have been better.

 The AD itself was to correct deficiencies in SB475C in this particular area and not necessarily emphasizing 475C over 533C.  I would certainly hate to tear down my engine because it hit a blade of grass, but if it struck pavement with enough force to bend the prop, it may be appropriate....either way, it might be nice to document the decision making for future owners and so we wouldn't have to speculate as much on Mooneyspace (lol).

[takair]

"What is required for the log book entry?"

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-9C_CHG_1.pdf

5d touches on repair station data, so there is a possibility that any work done by a separate repair station are not in the log book, but with invoice records.  In these cases, the invoice/work order is as important as the logbook.  A good logbook entry should reference such a work order.

 

[jetdriven]

8130s for the gear, bolt, and lock plate aren't required for legal purposes but it goes a long way towards substantiating that those parts were, in fact, replaced. I've seen planes with a few chery max rivets on the belly, poorly touched up, and a prop whose serial number isn't the one in the maintenance records. I saw a Piper Seneca once with bondo on the wing and carefully placed rivets placed in nearly drilled holes In the bondo.  The dent was two feet in diameter and the spar and a rib was bent. First annual after purchase. As much as I've seen, there's a lot of scammers out there and this isn't a used car, it's an airplane and when something fails, it's serious. In this case the OP lived but let's be frank, he is he luckiest person there is. 

[Browncbr1]

I always understood it is the responsibility of the owner/operator to ensure all ADs are complied with.  So, could it be potentially argued that the responsibility fall back on chrixxer if it turns out that the AD had not actually been done?     If the look book entry doesn't comply with the AD logbook entry requirement, then, legally, it hasn't been done.  ???   I hope this is not the case

[Browncbr1]

On 10/1/2017 at 12:57 PM, chrixxer said:

FWIW prop was replaced with a low time (80 hour) prop from another E.

Yea, and I saw a beat up old 3 blade that looked like 5000 hours being painted with a rattle can and bolted back on.     I was told it had 700 hours, so I asked for the log from when it was on the previous A/C.    No dice. 

 

What about the mags and alternator?  Is there any record that the mags were replaced after the prop strike?    A sudden stoppage would surely damage the mags and possibly the alternator.  Is there any guidance for replacing mags, especially slicks, after a prop strike ??

[N6758N]

19 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

What about the mags and alternator?  Is there any record that the mags were replaced after the prop strike?    A sudden stoppage would surely damage the mags and possibly the alternator.  Is there any guidance for replacing mags, especially slicks, after a prop strike ??

Nope, not required. 

[chrixxer]

2 hours ago, Browncbr1 said:

I always understood it is the responsibility of the owner/operator to ensure all ADs are complied with.  So, could it be potentially argued that the responsibility fall back on chrixxer if it turns out that the AD had not actually been done?     If the look book entry doesn't comply with the AD logbook entry requirement, then, legally, it hasn't been done.  ???   I hope this is not the case

IAAL. I haven't researched this specifically, but my shoot-from-the-hip analysis is, if an A&P IA signs a logbook entry that says an AD was complied with, the owner (especially one who purchased after the fact) can justifiably rely on that representation.

[chrixxer]

No record of mags or generator being serviced, but both seemed fine. Did trip the generator breaker in flight once (and subsequently removed the CB cover so such an event would be more obvious in the future), but reset it and flew another ~55 hours without recurrence.

[N6758N]

12 minutes ago, chrixxer said:

IAAL. I haven't researched this specifically, but my shoot-from-the-hip analysis is, if an A&P IA signs a logbook entry that says an AD was complied with, the owner (especially one who purchased after the fact) can justifiably rely on that representation.

You would hope so, but ultimately the owner is responsible as Craig said. Given the sellers history however, I wouldn't trust a logbook entry for an oil change from him (I think you indicated someone else signed it off) 

[N6758N]

I would imagine they have your airplane in a warehouse somewhere and have probably already torn the engine down by now Chris. Any updates ?

[chrixxer]

1 hour ago, N6758N said:

I would imagine they have your airplane in a warehouse somewhere and have probably already torn the engine down by now Chris. Any updates ?

As of this morning it’s still at a salvage yard in Sunland. NTSB will be looking at it “later next month” after it’s moved to a “storage location in Phoenix.”

 

1 hour ago, N6758N said:

You would hope so, but ultimately the owner is responsible as Craig said. Given the sellers history however, I wouldn't trust a logbook entry for an oil change from him (I think you indicated someone else signed it off) 

Yeah, the A&P/IA that signed off the annual and the prop strike AD was not the seller.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, N6758N said:

I would imagine they have your airplane in a warehouse somewhere and have probably already torn the engine down by now Chris. Any updates ?

There's no rush on this one--no fatalities. Good job, Chris!