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Good or bad wheel?


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Ok, I need some advice.  I am finally getting the plane together and have started cleaning and inspecting the wheels.  This is what I found.  The corrosion is in the area of the snap ring.  Is it useable or not?  If not anyone have a used wheel that is reasonable?  It is the nose wheel for a 67 M20F.

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Most will probably say it's bad. 

However, there is no load on the snap ring. The corrosion is only there because the felts absorb water and  corrode the wheel. I've seen it as bad where the grove for the snap ring departs/cracks off. 

As long as there is no corrosion under the bearing races or any other part of the wheel I think you'll be ok. I went together with FAA approved bearings. Some argue not necessary. 

I had good luck with plastic bead blast,  Pre-kote treatment, sem etching primer, and finally  duplicate color silver brake caliper high temp paint. Some bake on the paint, but I had issues  with not getting the moisture out of the wheel after the pre-kote. Try and bake the moisture out of the wheel before you prime. 200° or so. Cleveland has a procedure in their CMM for refinishing. 

I think your wheel is probably magnesium not alumnium.

good luck!! Glad you care enough to take it this deep. Most don't!!

the next option is a $800 new wheel from Cleveland. You won't find a serviceable used one as they are all in the same shape as yours. 

-Matt

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I replaced mine during annual a few years ago, but I had some pretty rough areas on the tire bead, also.  But for that fact, I might have been inclined to let it slide.  I was drafting up the talking points for the sob story I was going to give my IA.  

Lucky for me, Dan (LASAR) checked the factory inventory.  They hadn't yet restarted the line at that time so had a couple nose wheels on the shelf at the old price.  Dan saved me about .3 AMU. 

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Well I think I've reached a conclusion.  Owning a plane is like a boat, motorcycle or anything else that is fun or enjoyable it sucks to maintain or buy used.  I am ready to scream!!!!  Actually I am laughing it can't get no worse:wacko:.   So the front wheel  is shot I found a hairline crack around the bolt hole. That is a no brainer.  The main wheels are questionable. I am cleaning them now and going to see how deep the corrosion line is where the rotors sit.  I am guessing anything is bad but has anyone ever used good judgement to use again????  I will post a picture in a few minutes. 

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2 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

Well I think I've reached a conclusion.  Owning a plane is like a boat, motorcycle or anything else that is fun or enjoyable it sucks to maintain or buy used.  I am ready to scream!!!!  Actually I am laughing it can't get no worse:wacko:.   So the front wheel  is shot I found a hairline crack around the bolt hole. That is a no brainer.  The main wheels are questionable. I am cleaning them now and going to see how deep the corrosion line is where the rotors sit.  I am guessing anything is bad but has anyone ever used good judgement to use again????  I will post a picture in a few minutes. 

Oh please, please, please NEVER say it cannot get worse. The universe takes it as a challenge!;)

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Sorry about your fingers :( I believe there is a specification for how deep the corrosion must be in a casting before it is unacceptable.  I looked in my personal copy of AC 43.13-1b (also available as a pdf:  https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/99861), but I haven't yet found the number.  I'm guessing any A&P worth his salt could tell you off the top of his head.  I personally would be concerned about the bearing race, it looks to me like there is some corrosion too close to where the bearings run.  The wheel certainly looks questionable from my perspective, however, I can't measure the depth from the picture.  

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The front wheel looks like the bearing spun which I would be a bit more concerned....  But you already found a crack.    The mains are going to kind of be like that based on the steel brakes.... steel and magnesium. Your A&P should make the final call.

I have a scale

Wings fall off/control surfaces - be very careful - double and triple check your work.  Replace when in doubt.

Engine - double check your work. Work slowly... with intent and purpose - Wheels and brakes.   It's going to be an insurance issue if things go wrong. 

It's going to flap around and mess things up causing rework (inspection panels)   Take one more lap around the screws and make sure they are tight.  plan the work and stop at logical points and mark your work so you know where to start back up.

just an ASEL ....

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3 minutes ago, Yetti said:

The front wheel looks like the bearing spun which I would be a bit more concerned....  But you already found a crack.    The mains are going to kind of be like that based on the steel brakes.... steel and magnesium. Your A&P should make the final call.

I have a scale

Wings fall off/control surfaces - be very careful - double and triple check your work.  Replace when in doubt.

Engine - double check your work. Work slowly... with intent and purpose - Wheels and brakes.   It's going to be an insurance issue if things go wrong. 

It's going to flap around and mess things up causing rework (inspection panels)   Take one more lap around the screws and make sure they are tight.  plan the work and stop at logical points and mark your work so you know where to start back up.

just an ASEL ....

Thanks....  Agree 100%.  I made the call to replace them for reasons that my level of flying this new low wing is not the same experience I had with high wings.  This new adventure of low wings are way more slippery and I am heeding caution and getting new wheels.  I am human and make errors and it would be really stupid of me to know better and fly beyond my abilities and trust marginal equipment.   It would be a little different if I didn't know or didn't ask for opinions.  But I did and I know better.    Thank you

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1 hour ago, cctsurf said:

Unfortunately, looking at their website, unfortunately, it doesn't seem so.  http://www.groveaircraft.com/pma.html

They state that you have to have the stc, and it doesn't appear that they have an stc for Mooneys.

what if I don't tell:rolleyes:    Kidding.   That just kills me a piece of paper determines the use of a product

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Was talking wheels with the professional the other day.  He was rehabbing some.  They looked worse than your mains.  I would probably still fly the mains.  That looks mostly surface... nothing structural.  There is lots of material there.  The A&P should have a look.

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You will need to strip the paint down to bare metal and then look at the Cleveland Maintenance manual to determine where to go next. The manual is on the internet for free. You might win with a good glass bead blast to remove the corrosion and then treat it as prescribed in the MM. I would also replace all the through bolts and hardware at this time. The wheel is how old? So are the bolts, and they take a big beating on every landing. Found many a broken wheel bolt over the years. Use a torque wrench to tighten them, its important! I changed all the bolts in all of my wheels over the last three tire changes. 

Lots of things go into getting an STC besides "just a piece of paper". 

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I just finished glass beading the one that looked the worst in the picture above and found nothing else that stands out.  I am going to do the other main wheel tomorrow and see if it is any better.  I might be able to get by with only replacing the nose and one main.  My gut says just replace them all and be done with it.  I am just going thru the motions to learn, I am so dam curious as to why this happened and how.  They corroded where the steel rotor made contact and where the grease for the bearings sat.  According to the logs the wheels have been replaced once already.

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Keep in mind that some STCs bring great products to market. The STC can be the equivalent of a patent.

So, yes it is only a piece of paper.  It's the piece of paper that allowed the device to exist.

A simple STC cost me 5amu once. I'm pretty happy with the results...

and yes, it is very well known technology now as it was then...

how would a wheel manufacturer fix this issue?

There is plenty of knowledge of working with mag wheels around. They probably weld and refinish it.  The cost may be more than buying a new wheel.  It might be interesting to explore the avenue... you may need to have your mechanic on board with this approach.

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited by carusoam
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So I pulled the trigger yesterday and decided to order a grove wheel for the nose wheel.  It is a TSO wheel for aircraft in general that meets the specifications for weight and load and is exactly the same measurements in size and weight.  The issue is its not STC'd for a Mooney.  The savings in cost is close to 400.00    The Cleveland front wheel is STC'd for a Mooney but it doesn't even come complete.   The grove is complete with seals and bearings. 

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2 hours ago, Dream to fly said:

So I pulled the trigger yesterday and decided to order a grove wheel for the nose wheel.  It is a TSO wheel for aircraft in general that meets the specifications for weight and load and is exactly the same measurements in size and weight.  The issue is its not STC'd for a Mooney.  The savings in cost is close to 400.00    The Cleveland front wheel is STC'd for a Mooney but it doesn't even come complete.   The grove is complete with seals and bearings. 

As an owner produced/supplied part, you're stepping into a grey area, but not necessarily wrong.  

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Clean and prekote the wheels but use epoxy primer and real urethane 2-stage paint.  Magnesium absorbs water like a sponge and will get filiform corrosion with anything else.  Also bake them before primer. 

Do the calipers at the same time. 

Mine are going on 3 years now and look indistinguishable from new 

Edited by jetdriven
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3 hours ago, Andy95W said:

As an owner produced/supplied part, you're stepping into a grey area, but not necessarily wrong.  

Agreed!!  That is why I did go with the TSO version.  I put my big boy panties on and I expect at some point somebody will challenge my actions.  I have both Cleveland and grove spec. sheets and they are identical in design and work load. 

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Check the spacing of the bearings. Make sure the wheel is on the same plane as prior or it will effect retraction, the nose well is fairly tight. 

I'm not faulting your decision, but technically it's in the TCDS to have Cleveland wheel assemblies. 

The Robby Grove is awesome! 

Possibly take all of your notes and drawings to the FSDO and "ask permission" to use the wheel via 337.  I believe an inspector shouldn't have issue with a TSO assembly. If they didn't mention it in the TCDS, I wouldn't have a single issue with it. That's the only thing I'd worry about. 

-Matt 

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