Alan Fox Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 10 hours ago, RLCarter said: You can replace the belts and shoulder strap, what you cant do is install the mounting hardware for the shoulder strap You can do what ever you choose , but unless you have an airframe rating its not and never will be legal.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 9 hours ago, nels said: That might be grey area? There is no alteration or modification of the airframe necessary. Nothing grey about it , There is a list of owner approved maintenance items , and I dont recall seat belts on it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 On 4/27/2017 at 10:13 PM, MIm20c said: I recently purchased a plane without shoulder harness provisions for the pilot and copilot. I've been looking at the Alpha Aviation units but the price is ~$925 for a fixed kit with new rear belts. Looks like a 40% increase in price over the past 3 years. Do I have any other options that might be less expensive? Thanks for the help! If you cheap out and build your own , you BETTER remove them when you sell your plane , If you put them in , and they fail , and someone gets hurt , you have liability exposure , same thing with the passenger seat , In the grand scheme of things the 300 dollars you save may not be worth it , If its a question of not being able to afford it , Thats none of my business , but it is insane to fly GA without shoulder harnesses , A large percentage of GA fatalities would have been survivable with shoulder harnesses... Unfortunately adding the inertial reels on an older Mooneys looks cheesy and can interfere with the seats and rear passengers from getting in and out ....... As far as being legal , without an STC , or DER , its not a legal install , As a mechanic I probably would overlook it on an inspection , but I would never sign it off... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 44 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said: FAR Part 43, Appendix A, Paragraph C specifically authorizes pilot owners to replace seat belts. It doesn't authorize initial installations, however, and the seat belts obviously must be "approved". Replacing , means replacing with the same part numbers , Not upgrading ..... Also approved , means stc'd , You cant legally just take a set of Amsafes , and throw them in any plane without an Stc ..... Although like I said , I would probably overlook it on an inspection.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 I noticed an NTSB logo on the shirt as I was boarding a SWA flight. We started chatting. We came around that I had a Mooney. The next question/strong suggestion was "you have shoulder belts in it don't you" "Yes" "First thing we did." Someone should read the AC on shoulder belts and report back.. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/22261 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 2 hours ago, Alan Fox said: If you cheap out and build your own , you BETTER remove them when you sell your plane , If you put them in , and they fail , and someone gets hurt , you have liability exposure , same thing with the passenger seat , In the grand scheme of things the 300 dollars you save may not be worth it , If its a question of not being able to afford it , Thats none of my business , but it is insane to fly GA without shoulder harnesses , A large percentage of GA fatalities would have been survivable with shoulder harnesses... Unfortunately adding the inertial reels on an older Mooneys looks cheesy and can interfere with the seats and rear passengers from getting in and out ....... As far as being legal , without an STC , or DER , its not a legal install , As a mechanic I probably would overlook it on an inspection , but I would never sign it off... Didn't/Wouldn't flinch at $300-$400 for shoulder harness purchase. A grand? Hell No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameIsNobody Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 This pricing reminds me of th gear biscuits. A complete F'ing RIPOFF. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIm20c Posted April 29, 2017 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 3 hours ago, Alan Fox said: If you cheap out and build your own , you BETTER remove them when you sell your plane , If you put them in , and they fail , and someone gets hurt , you have liability exposure , same thing with the passenger seat , In the grand scheme of things the 300 dollars you save may not be worth it , If its a question of not being able to afford it , Thats none of my business , but it is insane to fly GA without shoulder harnesses , A large percentage of GA fatalities would have been survivable with shoulder harnesses... Unfortunately adding the inertial reels on an older Mooneys looks cheesy and can interfere with the seats and rear passengers from getting in and out ....... As far as being legal , without an STC , or DER , its not a legal install , As a mechanic I probably would overlook it on an inspection , but I would never sign it off... I'm looking for an approved install for my IA to install with my assistance. If you are implying that sourcing the parts from laser and having the webbing replaced on my hardware by an approved company is not legal I will continue looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 1 hour ago, MyNameIsNobody said: This pricing reminds me of th gear biscuits. A complete F'ing RIPOFF. Problem with the biscuits is they have a shelf life , So I'm guessing the production runs are small .... Probably less than 2000 a year... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 My IA also recommended contacting Hooker harness. I'm calling them on Monday to see what they can do. Would you guys be interested in a group buy if they can do it for us? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 So, all of this discussion got me thinking about seat belt longetivity. When I did my seat re-upholstering, I inspected each belt looking for fraying or other wear. This included the buckles. I did note that they were on the plane for a long time.After they were re-installed and cotter pinned by the shop, I still wasn't comfortable with the unanswered question of when and if a seat belt in my plane should be replaced (if ever). Anyone know?Some reading materials on the topic:https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-archive/aircraft-ownership/preventive-maintenancehttps://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info/all_infos/media/2017/InFO17004.pdfSent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooneymite Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 I'm sure the seat belts were "certified" when Mooney got produced the planes, but I've always wondered about the efficacy of a seat-belt anchored to the seat itself rather than the airframe. Hopefully none of us will ever have to test this set-up to its limits! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 I'm sure the seat belts were "certified" when Mooney got produced the planes, but I've always wondered about the efficacy of a seat-belt anchored to the seat itself rather than the airframe. Hopefully none of us will ever have to test this set-up to its limits! Yeah, I don't like it mounted to the seats either. I personally would be happy if a 5 point mounted to the aircraft, like you see in a TBM, was available. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXX Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 4 hours ago, Marauder said: So, all of this discussion got me thinking about seat belt longetivity. When I did my seat re-upholstering, I inspected each belt looking for fraying or other wear. This included the buckles. I did note that they were on the plane for a long time. After they were re-installed and cotter pinned by the shop, I still wasn't comfortable with the unanswered question of when and if a seat belt in my plane should be replaced (if ever). Anyone know? Some reading materials on the topic:https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/pic-archive/aircraft-ownership/preventive-maintenancehttps://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/info/all_infos/media/2017/InFO17004.pdf Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro Here is some pertinent information since you asked. Seems elongation could be an issue with older belts. https://www.easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/SEBED Report_Final_5-2010.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yetti Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 There is lots of nylon webbing and ropes used in climbing. And it is tested sometimes to the breaking point. Some of that reading should transfer over to seat belts. Also race cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 The AC43-13 has a section covering seat and shoulder belt installations in airframes which have no STC'd version. See chapter 9. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 43.13-2B.pdf Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 If the price of seat/ shoulder belts is high, what do we call Jeppesen navigation database costs? They're just reformatting data that some others provide for free or next to free. It's too bad one of these couldn't provide a down load to my 430 cards. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrixxer Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 On 4/28/2017 at 0:48 AM, Skates97 said: My DPE for my PPL has a son who had an off field landing. Everything was looking good right until the plane caught a small berm in the field he was putting it down in. If he had shoulder belts he would have walked away with minor injuries. Instead he ended up spending significant time in intensive care in a medically induced coma and multiple reconstructive surgeries. After that my DPE said he refuses to fly in anything without shoulder belts. Tony, then? Had him for my PPL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 1 hour ago, Yetti said: There is lots of nylon webbing and ropes used in climbing. And it is tested sometimes to the breaking point. Some of that reading should transfer over to seat belts. Also race cars. About twelve years ago the SCCA (car racing organization) hosted a safety symposium with a bunch of the top-notch race safety engineering folks from that time. At that time head-and-neck restraints were new, so there was a lot of info on those, but there was also a lot of info on harnesses, as six-point harnesses and some other technologies were pretty new at that time. Harness materials were discussed quite a bit, including aging. A lot of the science came from US military studies on helicopter harnesses, and one of the things that came out of that was that sunlight is the big enemy of harness material, especially nylon. These days many premium racing harnesses (e.g., Schroth) are polyester, partly because of the reduced stretch (as shown in the report linked above) but also increased longevity with sunlight exposure, etc. Most racing organizations cycle harnesses out with a five-year life cycle, even if they're polyester. In other words, they expire after five years and you'll fail safety tech if you don't get a new harness (mfg date is marked on them). Some manufacturers will re-web them at reasonable cost, and this is a common thing to do rather than buying an entire new harness. That said, for whatever reason I've not seen OEM automotive seatbelts (which seem to usually be nylon) dry up and get brittle like race harnesses do over time, or even most aircraft belts/harnesses. I've done many a junkyard trip where we chopped a seatbelt out of a seriously old nearby junked car and used it to hoist an engine or something heavy, and they never, ever seem to break. A junkyard I used to frequent (back when you could do such things) would routinely swing engines/transmissions/whatever from the bucket of a front loader while transporting them around the yard swinging from a single old seatlbelt. So there's data out there that suggests being careful with old belts/harnesses, especially if they've had a lot of sun exposure. I think with automotive and aircraft belts the main thing to do is check condition. If there's any fraying or brittleness or fading, think about replacing or rewebbing, especially if they're old and have been in the sun a lot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Fox Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 8 hours ago, MIm20c said: I'm looking for an approved install for my IA to install with my assistance. If you are implying that sourcing the parts from laser and having the webbing replaced on my hardware by an approved company is not legal I will continue looking. Rewebbing is legal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skates97 Posted April 29, 2017 Report Share Posted April 29, 2017 1 hour ago, chrixxer said: Tony, then? Had him for my PPL. Yes, he was great. I think he has the right approach and attitude about the check ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLCarter Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 9 hours ago, MIm20c said: I'm looking for an approved install for my IA to install with my assistance. If you are implying that sourcing the parts from laser and having the webbing replaced on my hardware by an approved company is not legal I will continue looking. The hardware (minor kit) is the same as Mooney used on later models, which means there is only a logbook entry from an A&P, re-webbing is legal by some that is certified to do so, the problem is you do not have shoulder straps to be re-webbed, plus you can't add the strap to your existing lap belts because there is no place for the shoulder strap to be attached. When I installed the front shoulder belts I looked at getting the rear belts re-webbed, with freight both ways plus the webbing it was only about $75.00 bucks more to get new news with buckles that matched the new front. Another option is to buy the minor kit and a used set of belts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrixxer Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 What about: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/alphabelts3.php 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 30, 2017 Report Share Posted April 30, 2017 From the J model IPC it looks like you would need AN741-6 or now MS 27405-6 clamps and a few bolts and bushings to anchor the shoulder belt. Clarence Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaitcev Posted May 1, 2017 Report Share Posted May 1, 2017 On 4/29/2017 at 9:58 AM, Marauder said: After they were re-installed and cotter pinned by the shop, I still wasn't comfortable with the unanswered question of when and if a seat belt in my plane should be replaced (if ever). Anyone know? Dan MacDonald writes: "Existing seat belts must be inspected periodically, at least at every annual. Look for: - Frayed, torn, or faded fabric, - Broken stitches, - Bent or broken buckles, latches, springs or other hardware items, - Faded or missing TSO tags. Immediately repair or replace the belts if any of the above problems exist. It is possible to have new webbing installed on your existing seat belt hardware, however the cost savings are not significant and you probably need new buckles anyway." He implies that all that's necessary is adherence to TSO-C22g, contra Alan Fox above. FWIW. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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