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VFR flying is it right?


Dream to fly

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I am of the belief that it's almost always easier and safer to be in "the system". I would encourage anyone that plans on using an airplane for travel to get very comfortable with phraseology and use flight following when ever possible. You get many of the benefits of IFR flying with none of the restrictions.

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Although I've been instrument rated for 25 years I flew VFR for the better part of the 20 of them I lived in Colorado. Exceptional visibility all around and high MEAs to the west were a big part of the reason. The height of those mountains to the west also meant there was often no flight following available. Loved every minute of it.

Three years ago, a friend of mine bought a factory RV-12 LSA. He and an instructor flew it from Oregon back to North Carolina. Is that enough cross country? :D 

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38 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

IFR, allows friends and family to track your progress.

So does VFR flight following  if they know what to do. Flight aware has made some default setting changes that present more of a challenge, but still doable. Flight aware seems to be devolving in terms of UI. It used to be a great site.

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Skates nailed it, careful planning especially while enroute makes vfr flight much easier than when us older folks started. I see absolutely no reason with time on your side why you cannot travel within the flight system. 

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With more capability  comes more fun and more responsibility.  If you will, just be careful (as a VFR or IFR) pilot  not to fall into the trap and be anthropomorphic and expect a more capable aircraft to assume more responsibility--it's all on us.  I say this with experience training quarter horses that it is very apparent that the "ride/horse" (trusted steed) can recognize the experience level of the rider yet the horse may be the capable of performance only an experienced rider can handle.  Also, I've seen high performance horses tone down their behavior and show great care when I've placed inexperienced riders in the saddle.  In the case of aviation, the more capable "trusted steed" doesn't know and doesn't care. You've chosen a great steed in the Mooney--VFR or IFR.

 

 

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We often point to the convenience of IFR in terms of dealing with airspace, etc, but that's not always the case. One of few times I filed IFR in Colorado was on a trip northeast to South Dakota. It was CAVU but I had gotten a bit rusty operationally so I filed. I kept going east. And east. And east...

Finally the controller came on the radio. "Are you on a practice IFR flight?" "Not really, why?" "Well, if you remain IFR I won't be able to turn you north for another [I forget how many] miles."

I had forgotten that I would be crossing a major approach/departure corridor, and IFR would add a significant amount of time to my flight.

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I've said it before and will say it again..(even though I did not word it as eloquently you, well I caught some minor flack of VFR vs IFR). VFR is great..you can pretty much go anyplace a IFR pilot can go. You just have to be more flexible on your schedule. I did three trips from TN to New England last year and only once did I have to reschedule the trip home. This caused a 3 day return delay..Rescheduling not a big deal other than the fact we went to LL Bean on one of the rainy days and my other half managed to dent my credit card pretty good. Still fantastic trips. Here is where I got some forum flack and it was okay, I'm a big boy and it was taken in stride..I've flown with some really good IFR guys and some really crappy IFR guys. The rating is stamp that you have trained and completed requirements. You have demonstrated proficiency maneuvers. There is no reason a VFR pilot can not be as capable as a IFR pilot. I am now back in the saddle and picked back up on my IFR training after some major panel upgrades. Took time to get the hang of all the goodies, but I'm feeling better. At this point I feel like I'm in better control of my Mooney than I have ever been, of course it has taken me 5 yrs, but I can say with confidence I am comfortably flying ahead of my plane and rarely feel like the plane is flying me.The equipment change up last fall pushed my IFR back quite a bit, but now I'm feeling warmer and familiar with all of the new install gear.

The bottom line is... If you have the time, with proper planning and can be somewhat flexible you can fly VFR all over the place as well as a IFR guy. IFR is great if you really want to put your plane to work for you and run a much tighter schedule.

Example: I'm heading to Gulf Shores Friday to take some friends down for three days. Their personal vacation. I might stay or might come back to TN. It's only 2 hrs +/-. I've been watching weather all week so I don't screw up their plans. Since the Tennessee weather is looking "iffy" Friday I told them to be sure to have a back-up plan in case we get weathered in and can't go. Am I tired of checking weather every day hoping for Fridays forecast to change? yep,  GShores looks pretty good all weekend so no problem there, Tennessee not so great..If I was IFR rated this would be less of a issue, but it is what it is. I'll continue to monitor today hoping for the best. I'll make the decision tonight. If I was IFR rated..no brainer and we would be ready to roll Friday. Few clouds, would be no issue, as it is I've got to keep glued to the weather.

Bottom line..it's all about the planning and flexibility. VFR is still very capable flying, IFR is just allows more opportunity when things look "iffy". 

Just my .02

-Tom

 

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Birds fly cross-country all the time with nothing but a birdbrain. Even if my Mooney and I weren't IR, I wouldn't hesitate to fly coast to coast VFR. In fact, I've canceled IFR and continued VFR before.  I've flown VFR with a 2nd aircraft to the Bahamas and back, no problem.  An IR will make you a better/safer pilot, but honestly being VFR-only doesn't limit your range at all.  Just be weather aware and time-flexible and go wherever you want to go.

Side story: After landing at home (Alabama) from Dallas after a VFR flight without flight following, the FBO guy handed me a phone number and said a guy wanted to talk to me.  I said "Huh?"  and he said "I got a call 20 minutes ago that they'd been tracking a plane on radar, it was descending into here, and to not alert the pilot but to call them back with the tail number, type of plane, number of occupants, how they were dressed, how many bags they unloaded, who met them, what they were driving, etc. I'm not gonna do their work for 'em, but you can call 'em back if you want to".  Turns out the guy wouldn't tell me what department he worked for, only that my flight had been picked totally at random (uh huh) for an "exercise".  I told him everything he wanted to know, and even offered some advice - I had given a PIREP enroute which would've given them enough info to identify me, if only they were plugged into that side of the FAA. "Good day, Sir".

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Yes you can do it VFR with proper planning.

You can do it IFR with proper planning.

I file IFR for any flight that is not just local or less than an hour but that is just me.  Most of my IFR flights have been clear blue skies and that is the way I prefer it.

The IR has allowed me to keep a better schedule when needed but still not fool proof and I have experienced delays.

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There were a lot of interesting replies here and I enjoyed reading each one. But one thing that hadn't been discussed was training to get out of bad situations. I'm sure there are a lot of VFR guys out there who think that the 15 minutes they spend under the hood with their instructor during their BFR is sufficient enough training to make a quick 180 back to safety, the reality is that it's not. I urge you, no, I implore you, to get dedicated training under the hood so that you can confidently get yourself out of trouble. This means a couple of hours a year, not minutes. 

Remember the number 178.

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The idea that VFR pilots should be barred from very long cross countries is absurd. You need to be mentally prepared though to stop and wait for weather but so should an IFR pilot. I like to tell myself that my newly minted IFR rating (when I get it)  will get me 5 % more probability of getting through than I have right now VFR only. The airlines don't get 100% and I doubt that single engine IFR pilots approach 90% probability of getting through. (I'm making up the numbers so cut me a little slack)  So we all need to be prepared with layover plans in case the weather doesn't play along with our agenda. Plenty of room on the credit card and some checking out good of places to "hole-up" should help alleviate the get-there-itis that puts pressure on pilots to push on into a bad situation.

If you're prepared to call home and tell them you'll be a couple days late and then have fun playing golf in the rain in Ohio you should be in great shape putting what you learned getting your private to work. You have to build up the cross-country miles to get the IFR rating anyway.

I'm not advising you to start out across the Atlantic without an IFR rating of course. There aren't enough places to stop and play golf.

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To the OP (and the other non IR guys), you will notice a common theme when it comes to IR bashing and trying to affirm VFR, it's exclusively the VFR only guys that do it. You're not going to find an instrument rated guy that regrets it. Everyone that has gotten the training and has witnessed the utility of it will support it. It's only the guys who for one reason or another don't want to put the work in to getting it that will tell you that VFR is just as good.

Like I said before, IFR knowledge/capability has empowered me to make use of my VFR flying to the limit. There are loads of VFR trips I would have scrapped before I had my instrument rating that I will comfortably fly VFR now. I was a bit chicken about lower VFR or getting stuck on top and rightfully so. But with the confidence and experience of an instrument rating, you can make a cross country trip VFR while still having the experience and "out" of IFR.

Some examples. A few years ago I flew down to Florida at night. It was clear in the NYC area so I climbed up no problem. As I continued south, clouds started to cover the ground beneath me (about halfway down). They went from few to scattered to broken. Although at the destination, it should be (and was) possible to descend back down VFR, it wasn't guaranteed. VFR only, you'd be forced to fly under the deck which was probably around 2-3000. Is that doable? Certainly. Is it safe? Probably. Is it a lot harder and more stressful than being above the clouds with nothing to hit? Absolutely.

Another example. Last weekend I flew down to Kittyhawk. I wanted to take advantage of better winds higher so I opted to fly at 8500. I was coming up on some clouds that were topping off at 8 and eventually 9000 so I climbed to 10,500 to stay above. It was smooth sailing and a nice tailwind above the clouds and I was able to just go direct because of VFR. As I was getting closer to destination, the cloud tops continued to rise and I would meet them soon. They also became layered below me. I file IFR before I depart xcountry, even when going VFR, so I was able to just activate that flight plan and not have an issue getting back down. So while in the Florida trip, I managed to stay VFR above the clouds and descend just fine. This trip, I made use of my IR to come back down.

Neither example would be outright dangerous or impossible as VFR only. However, getting caught above would be imprudent. Being stuck below would be much more fatiguing and difficult (not to mention worse winds, turbulence, and traffic). But there are plenty of slightly more marginal cases where VFR flight may become impossible or temptation can make it become dangerous. I'm not saying it isn't possible to fly around the country VFR. I'm just saying it would be much harder, more stressful, and more time consuming than having instrument capability. Even if you don't end up having to use it!

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Just now, pinerunner said:

The idea that VFR pilots should be barred from very long cross countries is absurd. You need to be mentally prepared though to stop and wait for weather but so should an IFR pilot. I like to tell myself that my newly minted IFR rating (when I get it)  will get me 5 % more probability of getting through than I have right now VFR only.

I will cut you a lot of slack, but your numbers are way off. Since I got my IR two years ago, my mission success has been 95% for those trips where there wasn't adverse weather in the way. I said 95% because I'm still skittish about flying down to minimums and won't attempt a trip if the forecast at arrival time is for low IFR. I still know my limitations and don't take any chances, and I always follow my first rule of IFR flying - know where the VFR is.

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So does VFR flight following  if they know what to do. Flight aware has made some default setting changes that present more of a challenge, but still doable. Flight aware seems to be devolving in terms of UI. It used to be a great site.

Not very intuitive, then you need a login as well, plus I don't know if FF gives the ETA like it does with IFR, and as mentioned they can cancel FF. IFR is just easier for everyone. Agree with flightaware review, ditto for skyvector.
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9 hours ago, Shadrach said:

 VFR flying is very useful as long as you set realistic expectations and weather minimums. Start very conservative and work your personal limits towards the FAAs. The old adage that what is legal isn't always safe and what is safe isn't always legal holds true in this situation. Best to remain North of both safe and legal.

Well said. My biggest issue with VFR is "getting out" and for that I wish I was IFR.

That said, I plan to get IFR after I retire, which will also be when my VFR flying will be much, much more doable anyway (wait it out).

Bucket list is wanting a visit to each state in CONUS...who knows, might do AK and HI as well :wub:

N5976Q_States_Flown.jpg.2da2e688d09767bdd23a647b3483a985.jpg

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10 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Ever heard of VFR Over The Top, Mike?  With our Js' range and endurance and with today's on board weather and GPS navigation options it is a much better option than is slogging it out VFR below an overcast.  No, I am not talking about flying over the top of frontal movements or low overcasts here, but quite often VFR Over The Top is a wonderful way to fly.  And yes if the big fan out front stops I know how and have the redundant equipment onboard necessary to keep the sunny side up on the way down.  The pictures below are from different flights.  I have many more.

Jim

IMG_1787.JPG

IMG_0011.JPG

Yeah, I think that's pretty irresponsible as a VFR only pilot. It's not just about relying on the plane not breaking. Say your passenger gets sick or something else forces you to need to land ASAP but the overcast continues around you for many miles. You have no out. If it's a non-emergency but an urgent situation, your passenger is about to crap themselves and you value your interior, you're SOL. If it's a declared emergency, you still don't have the training, experience in the system, or currency to reliably pull that off.

Once you're above the top and can't see the ground, you don't necessarily know how thick it is. Sometimes it can develop multiple layers.

I do fly VFR Above Clouds lots of times. But I only do that if I could just as well be flying IFR in those clouds. Otherwise, I don't think it's a good judgement call.

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Hate that this becomes an IFR/VFR debate.   I think it is more about skill sets.  Just taxiing around the airport at night is a different skill set than day taxiing around the airport.   A better discussion might be what skill sets does a retired VFR without a timeline need to safely get across the country in a Mooney traveling machine.

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Just now, Yetti said:

Hate that this becomes an IFR/VFR debate.   I think it is more about skill sets.  Just taxiing around the airport at night is a different skill set than day taxiing around the airport.   A better discussion might be what skill sets does a retired VFR without a timeline need to safely get across the country in a Mooney traveling machine.

A better discussion might be what skill sets does a retired VFR without a timeline need to safely get across the country in a Mooney traveling time machine.

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48 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I will cut you a lot of slack, but your numbers are way off. Since I got my IR two years ago, my mission success has been 95% for those trips where there wasn't adverse weather in the way. I said 95% because I'm still skittish about flying down to minimums and won't attempt a trip if the forecast at arrival time is for low IFR. I still know my limitations and don't take any chances, and I always follow my first rule of IFR flying - know where the VFR is.

In my defense my numbers included my being here in the north where icing will be an issue in the winter months. I never want to learn first hand what icing is like so in the winter here there probably will be no real IFR. 

That said, I'd be scared of thunderstorms in Florida. Do you use a stormscope to get that 95% success rate or are Florida thunderstorms predictable enough that you avoid certain times and areas and don't get stuck.

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Just now, pinerunner said:

In my defense my numbers included my being here in the north where icing will be an issue in the winter months. I never want to learn first hand what icing is like so in the winter here there probably will be no real IFR. 

That said, I'd be scared of thunderstorms in Florida. Do you use a stormscope to get that 95% success rate or are Florida thunderstorms predictable enough that you avoid certain times and areas and don't get stuck.

Coastal thunderstorms are pretty predictable.    Water heats at a different rate than land.  Showers develop offshore and move onshore.   Usually after 1-2 in the afternoon.   Planes can fly around thunder storms in Texas.   I did a fair amount of my primary training in Texas with Thuderstorms around me.  Thunderstorms are very manageable.

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19 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Hate that this becomes an IFR/VFR debate.   I think it is more about skill sets.  Just taxiing around the airport at night is a different skill set than day taxiing around the airport.   A better discussion might be what skill sets does a retired VFR without a timeline need to safely get across the country in a Mooney traveling machine.

Keep the skills sharp and prep in advance..just like night flying. Had to fly two family members home the other night for a family emergency at 10 pm, this was a very dark field... Heading home from in the middle "no where" Tennessee back to Dyersburg TN.  Serious dark sky this particular night. Pre-flight, planning and safety is key. Far from flying in clear blue daytime VFR airspace.., but very legal.

night  flight.jpg

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Just now, pinerunner said:

In my defense my numbers included my being here in the north where icing will be an issue in the winter months. I never want to learn first hand what icing is like so in the winter here there probably will be no real IFR. 

That said, I'd be scared of thunderstorms in Florida. Do you use a stormscope to get that 95% success rate or are Florida thunderstorms predictable enough that you avoid certain times and areas and don't get stuck.

Regarding the TS question, it's an acquired skill set . We pretty much know the daily patterns, which start midday with buildups starting over the gulf and working their way east. This means flying down the west coast during late afternoon, at which time they hopefully all moved east. Then it's a delicate dance between what's showing up on the 20 minute old Nexrad (no Stormscope) and having our very talented controllers navigate us around the rough stuff. The golden rule here is, carry lots of extra fuel.

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Just now, bluehighwayflyer said:

We as PICs all have to decide how to pare the risk tree and we can do it in whatever manner we like as long as it is consistent with the FARs.

I completely agree. I wouldn't want to deny anyone the right to fly VFR. However, I'm also concerned that some of the flexibility offered by VFR may be dangerous for someone to fully exercise without significantly greater than the minimum required training to fly cross country VFR as a private pilot.

Just now, bluehighwayflyer said:

I think in your case you obtained your instrument rating relatively early in your flying experience and that before that you never engaged much in complex weather related aeronautical decision making.  As a result now you view less than perfect weather and VFR as mutually exclusive and they very much are not. 

Yes and no. I got my instrument rating/training shortly after getting my Mooney. However, at this point that was about midway to now in terms of years of experience. Simply put, about 5 years VFR only and 5 years IFR/VFR. On the other hand, more than 3/4 of my hours have been in the Mooney since. So I know a thing or two about VFR only cross country and waiting for weather.

2 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

You often fly very long flights at night and over sparsely traveled international waters and you have every right to do so. I wouldn't, but you do and that is fine.

I thought about that while posting my last response. Being over the top of clouds with water or mountains beneath them doesn't do you much good VFR or IFR. However, I choose to engage in this for relatively little time. I (and most of us) spend far more time over landable terrain with airports. So, you are kind of shutting out that option and shutting it out for a lot of time if you regularly fly VFR over clouds. The only thing that makes me comfortable flying VFR over clouds is instrument capability. So it kind of surprises me that someone would engage in this without it.

6 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Have you ever spent a week receiving instrument training at Flight Safety in Wichita?

What's special about instrument training in Kansas?

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