Tragic crash not reported for 21 hours-Poll

[Piloto]

6 hours ago, Mooney_Mike said:

Or you could get a 406MHZ ELT with near instant worldwide reporting with a 100 yard position accuracy.

A 406 MHz only ELT will not let know that airliner above you or that cruise liner on the horizon of your predicament. That is why I have a marine radio onboard.

José

Edited April 18, 2017 by Piloto

[peevee]

Just buy the 406elt. It's not that much money and the reasons have been beaten to death. The response time to a 121.5 is very slow and getting slower.

 

Airliners will pick up a signal from a hundred miles away or more. It's not useful information. Need lower traffic to pinpoint it. Also need people to monitor and actually tell someone.

 

You should be monitoring guard anyway. It's the first place someone will be looking for you if someone is looking for you.

[MyNameIsNobody]

18 minutes ago, peevee said:

Just buy the 406elt. It's not that much money and the reasons have been beaten to death. The response time to a 121.5 is very slow and getting slower.

 

Airliners will pick up a signal from a hundred miles away or more. It's not useful information. Need lower traffic to pinpoint it. Also need people to monitor and actually tell someone.

 

You should be monitoring guard anyway. It's the first place someone will be looking for you if someone is looking for you.

No.  Don't want one.  Don't need one.  Same with an AOA.  In summary: Thanks, but No thank you.

[MyNameIsNobody]

4 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

Well when I tune my com 2 to 121.5 and monitor it opens the squelch and I hear a lot of background noise.  So when flying I have it tuned int and occasionally swap to it and listen for a minute and if I hear nothing I turn it off.  Occasionally I have been asked by ATC to check 121.5 and let them know if I hear anything.  On very rare occasions I have heard an ELT.  I reported when and  how well I  heard, it and when it faded away to ATC.

Once many years ago around 1993 I was flying a 150 at about 1500 feet and heard an ELT bleeding over to my regular com frequency.  At first I thought I was imagining it.  I tuned in 121.5 and it was very strong.  I circled a tugboat below me and determined it was most likely the tug.  Ir radioed ATC and let them know what was going on. Coincidentally I was returning from a CAP search and rescue (SAR) exercise.

I am monitoring tunes on my I-Pad outside of controlled airspace.  Freedom, a wonderful thing.

[MyNameIsNobody]

18 hours ago, DXB said:

Horrible to hear, particularly in case a quicker response might have helped someone.  It sounds like it was a busy day at the field, so it's odd that no one noticed anything at that time and crash location.  I can't imagine any of us becoming aware of a downed aircraft and simply ignoring it.  I always have my 2nd radio monitoring 121.5 unless listening to AWOS/ ATIS or when impertinent chatter on that frequency becomes a distraction. Usually it's just quiet. I have had a message relayed to me on 121.5 when the controller forgot to hand me off and I went out of range, so I've been pretty consistent about monitoring since that time.  

I've heard a legit ELT go off once in my brief time as a pilot - then heard multiple commercial flights report it to NY Approach before I could open my mouth.  Turned out to be a warbird pilot who went down in the Hudson last year and perished.  

We shall see: "An earlier response might of helped someone"...

[peevee]

1 hour ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

No.  Don't want one.  Don't need one.  Same with an AOA.  In summary: Thanks, but No thank you.

Good luck then. It's literally all you have.

[kortopates]

Pretty unbelievable story that so many pilots didn't notice or report it. I am trying to imagine how visible this was to airport people and departing traffic. I assume it was pretty obvious and therefore assume most people thought someone else had already reported it. I certainly understand that but so sad.

But there are at least a couple ways pilot could have avoided this outcome despite nobody noticing or calling it in. The 406 ELT is obvious. Another is activating a VFR nextgen flight plan through LH on the runway with their smart phone or device before they were airborne. (I thinkI have heard that functionality has been integrated into FF). VFR flight plans after all are for this very purpose and the latest capabilities allow you to activate on the ground with out using the radio. Its possible one or more occupants didn't perish right away either that could still be alive. But if not this accident, certainly others.  

[XXX]

Kathryn's report posted a photo of the pilot and his young family today. So sad on so many levels.

 

[peevee]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

Pretty unbelievable story that so many pilots didn't notice or report it. I am trying to imagine how visible this was to airport people and departing traffic. I assume it was pretty obvious and therefore assume most people thought someone else had already reported it. I certainly understand that but so sad.

But there are at least a couple ways pilot could have avoided this outcome despite nobody noticing or calling it in. The 406 ELT is obvious. Another is activating a VFR nextgen flight plan through LH on the runway with their smart phone or device before they were airborne. (I thinkI have heard that functionality has been integrated into FF). VFR flight plans after all are for this very purpose and the latest capabilities allow you to activate on the ground with out using the radio. Its possible one or more occupants didn't perish right away either that could still be alive. But if not this accident, certainly others.  

Vfr flight plan would help but not until the aircraft is well overdue.

[tigers2007]

This is unreal. I just saw the photos; that thing looks quite pancaked. My 10-years of working full-time in EMS tells me that the two kids had a fighting chance but probably only for the "golden hour". I'm still shocked that this went unreported so long. This must be so close to the end of the runway. I always take glances outside on takeoff to spot potential emergency landing spots. How long does it take for a 406 response? Im assuming they call your cellphone first. Maybe our CAP guys can answer this - in a populated and easy accessible area like this crash, what would have been the "real world" response timeline?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jim Peace]

On 4/17/2017 at 5:04 PM, Yetti said:

 Monitoring 121.5 at take off would be one more distraction.  Not even sure it would be good CRM.

Huh?  

[Yetti]

You are in the most dangerous portion of your flight.  You should be motoring your engine, Looking for traffic, watching your airspeed, monitoring your engine, getting the gear up, Looking for a place to land, getting the flaps up, getting ready to do the cruise check list, Checking for your gear up, making radio calls, monitoring the engine. Looking for a place to land, monitoring your engine.  getting on course. There is noting routine about takeoff, all your senses should be engaged in that task.

[Tommy]

I dont minitor 121.5 instead 126.7 because it's the CTAF most commonly used in nontowered aerodromes here. Someone in trouble may not have time or thought about radio out emergency on a Centre frequency and 121.5 is now being phased on (no longer on sale). 

And 406 ELT is also compulsory here in Australia if you fly more than 50NM from your departing airport. 

A 406 response is often within an hour when I work as a SAR doc.  

[Yetti]

I generally have a policy of not commenting on accident threads.  I have already broken that policy. No electronics would save this family.  Not stall spinning in would have been the best option.

The aluminum sheet behind the cabin area is deflected into the frame.   The nose is 4 feet into the ground. Pretty sure the impact killed them all.

[gitmo234]

I've tried my best to monitor 121.5, especially on long flights. It gets so horrible I usually turn it off. People have whole conversations on there, in response there's 5 people yelling "GUARD" then kids hop on and start cursing or making fun of them. One guy was having a conversation with his A&P on the ground, its just horrible. When it becomes a distraction or safety risk for me in flight, I turn it off.

[kmyfm20s]

If I heard an ELT that close to the field I would have assumed someone was testing theirs even if it wasn't the appropriate time of day. 

As far as the plane going unnoticed we have had cars that have crashed feet from the freeway here in San Diego and not found for a couple of days. 

The shape that this plane is in I couldn't imagine anyone surviving but who know maybe as mentioned above about the golden hour for the kids assuming both where in the back seat but I still dought it.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions on airmanship either with an old 170 either. Could have been some sort of fraid pully cable or fatigue part that cause the pilot to loose control. That is probably one of the most forgiving planes in a stall situation.

[Jim Peace]

11 hours ago, Yetti said:

You are in the most dangerous portion of your flight.  You should be motoring your engine, Looking for traffic, watching your airspeed, monitoring your engine, getting the gear up, Looking for a place to land, getting the flaps up, getting ready to do the cruise check list, Checking for your gear up, making radio calls, monitoring the engine. Looking for a place to land, monitoring your engine.  getting on course. There is noting routine about takeoff, all your senses should be engaged in that task.

well you should probably tell every almost every airline pilot in the world that they are doing it wrong......

[Raptor05121]

I feel really bad about this incident. I have been planning to attend the Pig Roast at Williston for weeks now. Being that it started at noon, my friend and I elected to stop into Cross City from 9-noon to see their little mini-airshow and then we were going to stop into Williston to eat.

When we got to Cross City, I was approached by our EAA Young Eagles coordinator saying they desperately needed pilots for Young Eagles. So I scrapped my plans to Williston and stayed there, departing at 3.

I normally monitor 121.5 VERY often. On this day in question, Cross City's AWOS was INOP so I was busy tuning to Perry's AWOS trying to pick it up. On the climbout from Cross City at 3pm, I actually looked at my COM2 thinking if I should tune to 121.5. If I had just would have done it, I would have heard that ELT. Supposedly only an hour and a half after it went down. I am really kicking myself in the ass for this.

The super sad part is that a female pilot supposedly actually SPOTTED the crashed Cessna when she came in and asked a few pilots what happened to the down plane and nothing was said. Perfect example of the bystander effect.

[Yetti]

For me I am responding to the Sheriff who is saying that the other pilots and did not see the plane were being complacent.  My PIC job is to get the plane in the air.  Not looking for downed aircraft.  It's not an airline pilot situation where there is another person taking care of coms.  Single pilot reducing task load so they can focus on the task at hand.

Not commenting what happened or who did what. just looking at how the plane came to rest.

[DXB]

Given all the distracting BS on 121.5, I cant critique anyone for chosing to monitor or not monitor it presently.  However the frequency is still potentially very useful for lost coms, emergencies, and downed aircraft. This holds true whether one has a 406 mhz ELT or not.  I find it disheartening to learn that pilots seem primarily responsible for eroding this utility, including through false alarms.   

[AlexLev]

I just threw in $25 for his family's fund: https://www.gofundme.com/enders-family-fund/ -- if anyone else thinks it's appropriate, I'm sure they would appreciate it.

[peevee]

39 minutes ago, AlexLev said:

I just threw in $25 for his family's fund: https://www.gofundme.com/enders-family-fund/ -- if anyone else thinks it's appropriate, I'm sure they would appreciate it.

Glad to see natca doing something. I'll donate as well. Happy to help out the family of a brother or sister.

[wrench]

Always sad to hear about any loss. Rest assured Civil Air Patrol (CAP) still does these searches, I was on one that turned out to be an inadvertent triggering of a PLB  last Thursday. Air Force Search and Rescue gave us initial GPS search coordinates of a 406 Mhz beacon that turned out to be about 1.9 miles to the southwest of the actual find location. Our CAP aircraft found the 121.5 companion signal's general location very quickly and passed those coordinates on to the ground team I was on, once on scene we were able to isolate the signal to inside a home in about twenty minutes. Reports of 121.5 ELT signals are very useful in these searches especially from lower flying aircraft.

Civil Air Patrol is all the volunteer auxiliary of the US Air Force and performs many different missions as well as ELT searches. If any of you may be interested copy the link. gocivilairpatrol.com

Below is a forum response I gave last year on different search we did.
Posted September 12, 2016 · Report post

 

I see browsing the site that in the past there has been some confusion about the usefulness of 121.5 MHz ELT emergency beacon freq. A few months ago I went on a ground search for a 406 MHz emergency beacon. It turned out to be inadvertent triggering and all was well in this case. But I can tell you from this and other experience that if we did not have the homing ability of the 121.5 MHz companion signal from the 406 MHz equipment the ELT battery may have run dead on the unit before we ever found it. We were given Lat, Lon coordinates by SAR derived from a 406 MHz ELT beacon transmission to start the search. But we actually found it 3 miles away (typical).

As a side note, CAP aircraft are equipped for 121.5 MHz homing but were not used in this search. PLB's and EPIRB's I believe transmit on both 406 and the 121.5 MHz frequency when triggered also.

My observations from this type search

1) The 121.5 MHz is monitored by many commercial and some of us GA types while flying. We often still get reports of 121.5 triggering from these sources and was verified by commercial aircraft on this occasion also.

2) We get a very small search area IF your 406 MHz ELT has the ability to output a GPS signal to SARSAT. Typically within a few hundred meters, but not all 406 MHz ELT's have this ability!    406 MHz ELT's without the GPS output ability have a much larger search area. Our target in this case did not have GPS output thus a longer search time to find it.

3) In heavy ground or wooded cover the 121.5 may be the only reason SAR will find you. Especially for PLB's.

4) Our search area had mostly cell coverage but in many areas there was none especially in the low areas of the hilly terrain. Cell phone may or may not be a good backup but there are lots of recreational places in our state where coverage is nil.

5) If you have one of these devices, a 406 ELT or PLB or EPIRB, registration rules for the device's need to be followed to protect us all. I like many don't like a bunch of additional rules but to protect us and our passengers it can be very useful in this case.

 

My observations on 121.5 homing, I hope this helps.

 

[75_M20F]

2 hours ago, wrench said:

Always sad to hear about any loss. Rest assured Civil Air Patrol (CAP) still does these searches, I was on one that turned out to be an inadvertent triggering of a PLB  last Thursday. Air Force Search and Rescue gave us initial GPS search coordinates of a 406 Mhz beacon that turned out to be about 1.9 miles to the southwest of the actual find location. Our CAP aircraft found the 121.5 companion signal's general location very quickly and passed those coordinates on to the ground team I was on, once on scene we were able to isolate the signal to inside a home in about twenty minutes. Reports of 121.5 ELT signals are very useful in these searches especially from lower flying aircraft.

Civil Air Patrol is all the volunteer auxiliary of the US Air Force and performs many different missions as well as ELT searches. If any of you may be interested copy the link. gocivilairpatrol.com

Below is a forum response I gave last year on different search we did.
Posted September 12, 2016 · Report post

 

I see browsing the site that in the past there has been some confusion about the usefulness of 121.5 MHz ELT emergency beacon freq. A few months ago I went on a ground search for a 406 MHz emergency beacon. It turned out to be inadvertent triggering and all was well in this case. But I can tell you from this and other experience that if we did not have the homing ability of the 121.5 MHz companion signal from the 406 MHz equipment the ELT battery may have run dead on the unit before we ever found it. We were given Lat, Lon coordinates by SAR derived from a 406 MHz ELT beacon transmission to start the search. But we actually found it 3 miles away (typical).

As a side note, CAP aircraft are equipped for 121.5 MHz homing but were not used in this search. PLB's and EPIRB's I believe transmit on both 406 and the 121.5 MHz frequency when triggered also.

My observations from this type search

1) The 121.5 MHz is monitored by many commercial and some of us GA types while flying. We often still get reports of 121.5 triggering from these sources and was verified by commercial aircraft on this occasion also.

2) We get a very small search area IF your 406 MHz ELT has the ability to output a GPS signal to SARSAT. Typically within a few hundred meters, but not all 406 MHz ELT's have this ability!    406 MHz ELT's without the GPS output ability have a much larger search area. Our target in this case did not have GPS output thus a longer search time to find it.

3) In heavy ground or wooded cover the 121.5 may be the only reason SAR will find you. Especially for PLB's.

4) Our search area had mostly cell coverage but in many areas there was none especially in the low areas of the hilly terrain. Cell phone may or may not be a good backup but there are lots of recreational places in our state where coverage is nil.

5) If you have one of these devices, a 406 ELT or PLB or EPIRB, registration rules for the device's need to be followed to protect us all. I like many don't like a bunch of additional rules but to protect us and our passengers it can be very useful in this case.

 

My observations on 121.5 homing, I hope this helps.

 

The ELT in my aircraft has GPS position and it broadcasts both on 406MHZ and 121.5. I am assuming most do the dual broadcasting. The GPS position was a little more money, but worth it in my option, the cost was a couple hours of labor to have the ELT fed GPS data from my GTN750.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2017 by Mooney_Mike

[thinwing]

Very topical subject..back from search mission ,impossible to get a visual on an aircraft wreckage buried in 12 ft of snow...going out again tommorrow...no elt received.oh..I am not a cap member ,I'm Sherriff Squadron lending assistance

Edited April 20, 2017 by thinwing