Panel Scalability - Looking for Options

[LevelWing]

It's time to look at upgrading the panel now that the paint job is almost complete. I still have the old fake wood, shotgun layout for the panel. I'm looking for options on the best way to make the panel scalable so that I can upgrade different avionics at different times. I would really prefer to have a single piece panel that goes across the entire panel instead of the 3 piece that I see often. The problem is different manufacturers have different sized devices and that doesn't include new avionics that come out in the future. Below is a picture of my current panel. Additionally, here is a list of what I'd like to upgrade in the future as well as remove from the current panel. 

Remove from current panel:

• ADF (removed when panel is re-done)
• KNS 80 and King KX
• AccuTrak
• One VOR once GTN goes in

Add to panel:

• Dual G5 (?)
• GTN-650
• Engine monitor (Insight G4?)
• ADS-B compliant transponder
• Digital tach

 

[carusoam]

How big of a fan are you for a single supplier for your panel?

Are you a fan or not a fan of Big G?

Are you a fan or not a fan of JPI?

Are you Spending the kids inheritance or staying towards the CB budget?

How are you at selecting through waves of technical specifications?

Are you IFR or VFR?

What parts of your panel do you want out the soonest?

What additions do you want the soonest?

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 14, 2017 by carusoam

[LevelWing]

3 minutes ago, carusoam said:

How big of a fan are you for a single supplier for your panel?

It's preferred for compatibility but not required.

Are you a fan or not a fan of Big G?

I have no problem with them.

Are you a fan or not a fan of JPI?

Either them or EI, whichever has the better reviews/pricing at the time.

Are you Spending the kids inheritance or staying towards the CB budget?

No, which is why I'm looking to spread this out a bit.

How are you at selecting through waves of technical specifications?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

Are you IFR or VFR?

I'm working on the instrument rating.

What parts of your panel do you want out the soonest?

The panel itself and the ADF for sure. Maybe the transponder since the FAA has that rebate right now.

What additions do you want the soonest?

The transponder and digital tach are at the top of the list right now.

Best regards,

-a-

Answers to your questions are above in red. I should've titled the thread, "Spend my money for me!" 

[carusoam]

Regarding waves of technical specifications... these are the tech details that some of us love, memorize and can talk about compatibility in an ordinary lunch environment...

If you have this skill, (I don't) the ability to see your future is better than not having this skill.

Since you are embarking on IFR training, a WAAS based navigator may make a lot of sense.

The economics of Avidyne for new equipment looks pretty good.

Some used WAAS equipment might be worth considering.  Some of it may be ten years old already.

There are a handful of Cs around here that are getting similar stepwise updates each year.  Some are including Aspen displays with that.

Best regards,

-a-

[donkaye]

If you're working on your instrument rating, then I recommend getting the G5 AI first.  The Dual version is not available, yet. From now on I personally won't fly with or train anyone in IMC conditions who doesn't have a backup AI.  The old method of training using the TC if you have an AI failure doesn't cut it with me for safety reasons when these new inexpensive products are available.

Regarding GPSs; Avidyne has been talked about a lot recently and many people seem to like them, but to date with all my teaching I have yet to have someone come to me with an Avidyne GPS.  So for resale value I'd still recommend a GTN 650 for a C Model. Also, with the FS 510 you have the availability of automatic database updates through the iPad.  (I have no experience with the IFD 540 or 440, though).

I like both JPI and EI, although I currently have the EI MVP 50, which is overkill for the C Model.

For ease of interface I have stayed with one manufacturer where possible.  In my case Garmin, since I particularly like their interface and frequency of system updates.  That would more likely tie you to the GTX 345 for ADS-B Out and In with backup AHRS to display on the iPad for a backup to the backup.

[HRM]

3 minutes ago, donkaye said:

The Dual version is not available, yet. 

Do you mean two separate G5's that work together, or a different thing altogether?

G says:

• Dual G5 installation offers reversionary display capability plus the added redundancy of dual ADAHRS and dual backup batteries.

I ask because I am considering this route as well.

[LevelWing]

10 minutes ago, donkaye said:

If you're working on your instrument rating, then I recommend getting the G5 AI first.  The Dual version is not available, yet. From now on I personally won't fly with or train anyone in IMC conditions who doesn't have a backup AI.  The old method of training using the TC if you have an AI failure doesn't cut it with me for safety reasons when these new inexpensive products are available.

Regarding GPSs; Avidyne has been talked about a lot recently and many people seem to like them, but to date with all my teaching I have yet to have someone come to me with an Avidyne GPS.  So for resale value I'd still recommend a GTN 650 for a C Model. Also, with the FS 510 you have the availability of automatic database updates through the iPad.  (I have no experience with the IFD 540 or 440, though).

I like both JPI and EI, although I currently have the EI MVP 50, which is overkill for the C Model.

For ease of interface I have stayed with one manufacturer where possible.  In my case Garmin, since I particularly like their interface and frequency of system updates.  That would more likely tie you to the GTX 345 for ADS-B Out and In with backup AHRS to display on the iPad for a backup to the backup.

The biggest problem I see, especially if I get a single piece panel, is the ability to add/remove avionics later on. Something like the G5 shouldn't be an issue since it fits in the same slot as a regular AI. But when you start talking about upgrading to an IFR GPS or other avionics later, I'd like to have that option without having to cut a new panel each time I upgrade. I'll obviously need to draw it out very specifically and ensure that the instruments go where I want them to, keeping future plans in mind.

[donkaye]

19 minutes ago, HRM said:

Do you mean two separate G5's that work together, or a different thing altogether?

G says:

• Dual G5 installation offers reversionary display capability plus the added redundancy of dual ADAHRS and dual backup batteries.

I ask because I am considering this route as well.

See attached PDF, the highlighted portion at the end.

Garmin Introduces DG:HSI Version of G5 Display | Flying Magazine.pdf

[gsxrpilot]

1. Get a new left side panel cut. @"Chocks" can probably get you the best deal here. I'd get it cut to fit your existing instruments, just organize them better.

2. Engine monitor. The JPI-EDM 900 is your best bet to replace all stock instruments and you needed a new tach anyway. Or, get an Insight G2 and an EI-R1 tach. The price is gonna be close to the same either way, but the install on the EDM900 will be quite a bit more than the G2 + R1 tach.

3. Avidyne IFD440 or IFD540 if possible. The 440 and the Garmin 650 are the same size, but neither will display IFR plates, and are just too small in my opinion. The 540 will fit your panel nicely as opposed to a Garmin 750 which is beautiful and huge, but difficult to fit in your C panel.

4. Continue the project by upgrading other instruments such as the G5 AI + G5 HSI.

You could do this step by step as outlined here.

Just my $0.02

[LevelWing]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

1. Get a new left side panel cut. @"Chocks" can probably get you the best deal here. I'd get it cut to fit your existing instruments, just organize them better.

2. Engine monitor. The JPI-EDM 900 is your best bet to replace all stock instruments and you needed a new tach anyway. Or, get an Insight G2 and an EI-R1 tach. The price is gonna be close to the same either way, but the install on the EDM900 will be quite a bit more than the G2 + R1 tach.

3. Avidyne IFD440 or IFD540 if possible. The 440 and the Garmin 650 are the same size, but neither will display IFR plates, and are just too small in my opinion. The 540 will fit your panel nicely as opposed to a Garmin 750 which is beautiful and huge, but difficult to fit in your C panel.

4. Continue the project by upgrading other instruments such as the G5 AI + G5 HSI.

You could do this step by step as outlined here.

Just my $0.02

I have a few follow up questions for you. Which transponder route do you recommend? Why do you prefer the Avidyne solutions over the Garmin ones?

I'm leaning towards the L-3 Lynx transponder but I'm not sure that it's worth the cost. I could get a GTX 327 and something like the FreeFlight RANGR Lite and be ADS-B compliant. I already have ADS-B in with my Stratus box.

[gsxrpilot]

7 hours ago, LevelWing said:

I have a few follow up questions for you. Which transponder route do you recommend? Why do you prefer the Avidyne solutions over the Garmin ones?

I'm leaning towards the L-3 Lynx transponder but I'm not sure that it's worth the cost. I could get a GTX 327 and something like the FreeFlight RANGR Lite and be ADS-B compliant. I already have ADS-B in with my Stratus box.

Let me answer the Garmin vs. Avidyne question first. I like the Avidyne for several reasons. But the obvious reason for me was since I already had a 530W I could swap for the IFD540 without any install costs. It's a plug and play swap. The Garmin 750 would have required at least 1 AMU in install costs and maybe more. I like the way the IFD works, the flows, etc. There are a number of features that I liked over the Garmin. I like the IFD100 option on my iPad. I'm also not a fan of Garmin's corporate policies such as using Switzerland as a tax haven to avoid US taxes. 

The cheap way to go with a transponder, if you have a WAAS GPS, is the GTX330ES. Those can be picked up used for 2 AMU. If you don't have a WAAS GPS, get one ;-)  If you got the Avidyne GPS, then why not get the Avidyne transponder which gives you the ADSB Out. If you do that, Avidyne will throw in for free, a SkyTrax100 which can replace your Stratus and give you ADSB In to both your Avidyne and your ForeFlight on the iPad.  In my mind, spending extra to get a transponder with built in WAAS is a waste of money. I know it adds redundancy, but it's non-essential redundancy to me. I'd rather have the WAAS in the GPS, and save the money on the transponder. A lot of people love the Lynx, but to me the screen is too small to be useful. I'd rather have the traffic/weather on my iPad and the large screen 540.

I chose the AXP322 remote transponder just reduce the stuff in the panel. The IFD540 will drive the transponder as it's head.

I'm a proponent of having exactly what I need in the panel and nothing I don't. And that's my $0.02.

PS... looking forward to seeing that new paint job. 

[LevelWing]

5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Let me answer the Garmin vs. Avidyne question first. I like the Avidyne for several reasons. But the obvious reason for me was since I already had a 530W I could swap for the IFD540 without any install costs. It's a plug and play swap. The Garmin 750 would have required at least 1 AMU in install costs and maybe more. I like the way the IFD works, the flows, etc. There are a number of features that I liked over the Garmin. I like the IFD100 option on my iPad. I'm also not a fan of Garmin's corporate policies such as using Switzerland as a tax haven to avoid US taxes. 

The cheap way to go with a transponder, if you have a WAAS GPS, is the GTX330ES. Those can be picked up used for 2 AMU. If you don't have a WAAS GPS, get one ;-)  If you got the Avidyne GPS, then why not get the Avidyne transponder which gives you the ADSB Out. If you do that, Avidyne will throw in for free, a SkyTrax100 which can replace your Stratus and give you ADSB In to both your Avidyne and your ForeFlight on the iPad.  In my mind, spending extra to get a transponder with built in WAAS is a waste of money. I know it adds redundancy, but it's non-essential redundancy to me. I'd rather have the WAAS in the GPS, and save the money on the transponder. A lot of people love the Lynx, but to me the screen is too small to be useful. I'd rather have the traffic/weather on my iPad and the large screen 540.

I chose the AXP322 remote transponder just reduce the stuff in the panel. The IFD540 will drive the transponder as it's head.

I'm a proponent of having exactly what I need in the panel and nothing I don't. And that's my $0.02.

PS... looking forward to seeing that new paint job. 

Thanks for the explanation, it all makes sense. Browsing around on the Avidyne site and looking at some videos, the IFD boxes seem to be really user friendly (though my experience with Garmin is limited to the 430W and that's still pretty limited).

I understand your point about the transponder and redundancy. The GPS and transponder would take care of that issue. I'm less concerned about the ADS-B in with the Lynx or others simply because I have the Stratus box but if the GPS can add that in there for little to no cost (such as the Avidyne solution), then it makes sense to do it.

It's starting to look like I'm going to spend $10-15k either way and it's more a matter of which route I take to get there.  

Thanks for the feedback. I'll post pictures of the painting when it's done. 

[donkaye]

Paul gave a very good explanation of the Avidyne/Garmin difference.  Having had and been using my panel for over 3 years now, and being a Garmin fan a lot longer than that, I just disagree with his conclusions.  Every single time I open my cabin door to go flying, I know I made the right decision for me.