Does anyone else worry about getting denied a deviation in weather?

[chrisk]

1 hour ago, slowflyin said:

Ask early and you shall receive.  I've never been told "no" but I have had controllers get busy and forget me.   Also, don't assume they now more about the weather than you do.    All of my years of flying I've had controllers take care of me with great service.  Let me say that again, Great Service!  That being said, there are times when you have a better picture than they do or more tuned in on that particular day.  Once on departure from North Mrytle I was given a vector into the only giant cumulus build up in the area.   I was inexperienced and assumed he would turn me.  He did not and the ride got rough.  All ended well because short of declaring an emergency I requested a block altitude and "immediate" turn for weather.  The light went off on his end and I got what I needed.   "Immediate" or "With No Delay" seems to work well for me when the situation calls for it.   

The one time I used the word "Immediate", it very much got the attention of the controller.  --In retrospect, it was very bad judgement on my part when I entered that tall cloud, near the top, and  below freezing.  I had a plan to go right to get out before entering.  When I penetrated it, the windscreen was immediately covered with ice.  Not a slow build up, but more of a splat.   I started a right turn, called ATC and stated I needed an immediate right turn.  I  didn't really care what response I was given, but the controller was very accommodating.     I'm also much more cautious now.

[Hank]

12 hours ago, carusoam said:

Also know certain weather phenomenon are really difficult to go around...

The weather in the area around Tornado and fun (6 or 7 years ago?) made a continuous line of thunderstorms from TX to the East coast.  It was busy, wide spread, and few people had ADSB or XM weather. Trying to cross that line without knowledge of where exactly the gaps are was very challenging. The weather phenomenon lasted a week culminating in tornadoes at SNF...

Requesting anything took a long time. I bought an ADSB receiver shortly after that...

I stopped on the ground to pick up a print-out of the latest weather before heading off again... and stayed In VMC for a long time after that....

Pp thoughts only,

Best regards,

-a-

How did I miss you? I flew down from WV over widespread IFR conditions that kept many people on the ground, arriving just after the airshow with no holding at Lake Parker, on Wednesday. Left on Sunday after the ground dried out enough I felt safe pulling out of my spot, cranking up and taxiing. That was 2010, and I had a brand new Instrument Rating. The storms were wicked! I was in Hangar E when the tornadoes hit, but didn't do anything to my tent just 100-150 yards from GAC parking where planes were spun around, turned over and trees knocked down . . .

That was a good day to not be flying in Florida! We got the snot beat out of us over western NC going home on Sunday at 11,000', too . . . . But the Stormscope was clear!

[carusoam]

Hank,  I was in Tampa for a few days the weekend before that SNF... I took two HS baseball players to see a couple of Pre-Season baseball games.  Go GA!

That weather system was in place for at least a week. It grew each day and would weaken during the night, but wouldn't break up.

I learned a whole bunch about weather avoidance after that.

getting ADSB is helpful for the big picture.  

The strike finder can be challenging to interpret. When it shows lightening strikes in front, behind and all sides for 50 miles... It has probably been overloaded by everything around.  This means you have probably flown into something bigger than you expected to.

Weather products have improved accuracy tremendously since 2010.  Especially the cell phone products while on the ground.  Radar, storm cell strength, direction and speed. Predicted times and towns that it will cover....

Staying in VMC was key to navigation around the storm cells that day.  Low ceilings can be another hazard.

Being new to the IR has some additional challenges. 

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 12, 2017 by carusoam

[201er]

22 hours ago, RobertE said:

I'm a cautious instrument pilot, as evidenced by a reluctance to pick my way through buildups.  A narrow line is no problem but a deep front is one I would avoid, rightly or wrongly.  I've got all the equipment I need - Sirius/XM + a strikefinder - but, I guess, my core worry is being denied a deviation when that equipment shows one is important.  I would be interested in hearing other people's views.  Are others more trusting of ATC flexibility than am I? (What prompts this question is there is a youtube channel called "Niko's Wings".  I just watched him pick his way through about 200 miles of unsettled weather, requesting and getting deviations at least a dozen times.  Had one been denied that put him straight into a big blotch of yellow what would he have done?  Then again, if Niko is cool with it maybe I should be too?

I think that the answer to this naive question should be that you should only fly the level that you are comfortable. In other words, if you have a fear of ATC denying you deviations, then you haven't flown long enough or haven't gained enough trust in the system to know to work it. If other guys are having success "negotiating" their deviations, that doesn't necessarily mean that you will just cause you listened to them. Instead of throwing yourself into a situation thinking since everyone else manages that you will too, instead, build up to that level of confidence. For example, when you are flying and have a very minor cumulus build up, ask for a deviation.

Another time you may have a thunderstorm smack in front of you but clear blue skies on all other sides, you file direct (which takes you through it), but as you get closer you request to deviate. You'd have a very easy out if they deny you, "Cancel IFR, I'm going to go VFR around the weather." This is how experience is at tainted. You try just slightly more challenging situations than before and tighten your margins slightly. Eventually you're fully in the system. That said, you still have to watch for your own bacon and always have an out. That out might be declaring an emergency because ATC won't accommodate your necessity to deviate, but you MUST maintain the physical ability to deviate. No amount of ATC leniency can help if you get yourself surrounded in all directions.

[M016576]

8 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

You should never need to knowingly fly into weather that you see is dangerous, even if ATC tells you to.  If unable does not work, then you have one more tool in your quiver.  Declare an emergency.  It is an emergency if safety of flight would otherwise be compromised.

Sage advice.

 

I've been delayed in receiving a deviation due to two factors: traffic and terra firma (really MVA).  If you're going in VMC on top, requesting deviations right and left of course, and stating "I'm VMC" goes a ways towards helping.  You can also cancel IFR, pick up VFR+FF to stay on a strip, if you're VMC on top, and below class A, and pick you're way around the weather (and traffic) that way.  Then once you're ready to come down or resume your flight plan, it's simple to re-activate your IFR flight plan (i.e., get a new clearance).

but if you're trolling in IMC already, the best way to do it is just say the E word, if it's safety of flight related, or you fear it could be.  

[midlifeflyer]

The more I read of this thread, the more I realize it is a subset of a broader issue: a view of ATC as an authority figure. There was an event at my former home base. A student pilot on first solo who attempted to comply with a Tower instruction after last landing to "turn left next taxiway" when she should not have. She missed the taxiway, ended up in the weeds, and the runway was closed while they extricated the airplane. 

Diffetent situation, but really the same thing.

Two takeaways. One is, you do what you as PIC thinks is  needed and tell ATC. Two, not doing so can cause a bigger problem than taking command.

...and, it does not make you "anti authority hazardous attitude" which is a term the FAA apparently made up (Google it and see how many not FAA references you get).

[M016576]

20 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

The more I read of this thread, the more I realize it is a subset of a broader issue: a view of ATC as an authority figure. There was an event at my former home base. A student pilot on first solo who attempted to comply with a Tower instruction after last landing to "turn left next taxiway" when she should not have. She missed the taxiway, ended up in the weeds, and the runway was closed while they extricated the airplane. 

Diffetent situation, but really the same thing.

Two takeaways. One is, you do what you as PIC thinks is  needed and tell ATC. Two, not doing so can cause a bigger problem than taking command.

...and, it does not make you "anti authority hazardous attitude" which is a term the FAA apparently made up (Google it and see how many not FAA references you get).

That's exactly right.  The buck does stops with The PIC- ATC is there to help a pilot achieve and accomplish their mission, but they shouldn't be "taking orders" from them, knowingly putting themselves into potential danger just because ATC said "ten right for traffic" or something.  ATC understands that you are the one up in the airplane with the first hand situational awareness- what you ask for, they will honor within the limits of safety.  You're a team.

my favorite example of this is regarding IFR flight is the pilot, in VMC, that is on an IFR clearance that never looks outside  the aircraft, or stops scanning, because "they're IFR- it's not my responsibility."  But the fact is, if you're VMC, it certainly is the PIC's responsibility: ATC may not see a VFR target, it may not have a transponder, or they might just make a mistake.  And if that pilot sees a traffic conflict that ATC isn't talking about, what then, run into it because ATC says turn right 10?  Of course not.  But that illustrates the relationship... at least that works for me.

 

[RobertE]

Thanks, everyone, for your experiences.  This will help.  It seems that experience ranges from "never denied once" to "it depends on in what area you're flying".  

Although I didn't cite it in my question I got denied last year in the middle of Arizona at 13K on a day in which I doubt many were flying.  There was restricted space to my right so a deviation to the left was the only possibility and I requested it because I "thought" I saw some sparks emerge from a foreboding cloud about 20 miles ahead.  When denied I plowed ahead (there we no strikes on my strikefinder so I rationalized that it had been my imagination).  I think after all your input I would today ask for a different altitude that would allow a left deviation.  So thanks.  

Oh.  And it was my imagination.  Nothing happened but you can bet those 20 miles were spent with eyes glued to the strikefinder.

[Marauder]

36 minutes ago, RobertE said:

Thanks, everyone, for your experiences.  This will help.  It seems that experience ranges from "never denied once" to "it depends on in what area you're flying".  

Although I didn't cite it in my question I got denied last year in the middle of Arizona at 13K on a day in which I doubt many were flying.  There was restricted space to my right so a deviation to the left was the only possibility and I requested it because I "thought" I saw some sparks emerge from a foreboding cloud about 20 miles ahead.  When denied I plowed ahead (there we no strikes on my strikefinder so I rationalized that it had been my imagination).  I think after all your input I would today ask for a different altitude that would allow a left deviation.  So thanks.  

Oh.  And it was my imagination.  Nothing happened but you can bet those 20 miles were spent with eyes glued to the strikefinder.

Robert - I never have been denied either but have had to make some concessions to the flight plan. I think it was mentioned above about negotiating a new altitude or indicating you are in VMC and able to maintain visual separation from traffic. As a last resort, cancelling IFR or using the "E" word. 

One thing that caught my eye on your response was the "foreboding cloud about 20 miles ahead" comment. 20 miles for me is a bit close when dealing with an angry CB. I have seen hail spewing out of one that far away. Not sure what you are doing for weather both onboard or in preparation but I have learned to read the skew-ts and understand CAPE. Once you understand the likelihood of strong storms along your route, the more confident you will be about the need to ask for deviations earlier.

As for onboard weather, there are a lot of threads about whether to keep XM or is FIS-B enough. I think they all have their merits, but also their limitations. I also think the StormScope really helps making an early decision on the weather you are headed towards. I had a WX-8 and found it was helpful but due to radial spread, just wasn't accurate enough to let me know how much and how soon I needed to deviate. The WX-500 I have onboard now is light years ahead.

Here is a picture in JerryTJ's Ovation with XM, FIS-B and StormScope data all helping make a decision on where to divert to get around the weather. 

[peevee]

Does anyone worry about getting beat up and dragged off a united flight?

[aviatoreb]

Just now, peevee said:

Does anyone worry about getting beat up and dragged off a united flight?

...get out of that seat.

Unable.

...get up now.

Scream - emergency.

Then see what happens.

[bradp]

Four words: PIC authority. You're it.

That said I've had some really accommodating ATC including NY app/ ctr whom I recall giving me a deviation from about JFK to north of Albany for a line that closed in on a westbound flight. I think the key is tell them what you are thinking. I did that last summer when I gently pushed my VFR summer weather flying comfort level. As long as I had an out and let ATC know what my plan A and plan B was, I was accommodated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mooniac58]

Only flew a few years and 500 or so hours in a P-A46Malibu in the FLs (always IFR and being in the Rockies always in some weather) - but I can tell you I have never been denied a request for a wx deviation and usually at that point ATC just becomes your best buds in the sky trying to help you find holes or new routes through what they can see on their radars.

I love flying IFR and I only flew VFR twice in the past 3 years for fitting circumstances...twice because I had a bum autopilot and am scared to fly 3-5 hours with ATC yelling at me for 300+ altitude deviations ;-)   

As others have said though in the event that ATC does not give you a deviation that you feel is a threat to your ship, you are PIC and you must declare an emergency and do what you need to for a safe flight.  A little paperwork is better than being another accident report.

The closest I ever was to this was cruising at FL250 and we had rapid cabin decompression, about 2000 feet per minute.  I put on my O2 mask and called ATC reporting this and requesting an immediate decent to FL130.  They said "are you declaring an emergency?" and my response was "only if you don't clear me to FL130 or something darn close to it."  "Cleared to descend to FL130" was naturally the response.  They don't like paperwork either  

[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, mooniac58 said:

I can tell you I have never been denied a request for a wx deviation and usually at that point ATC just becomes your best buds in the sky trying to help you find holes or new routes through what they can see on their radars.

This has always been my experience as well.

[PTK]

NASA has developed what they call DWR (Dynamic Weather Routing.) They have been working with AA testing it. Although the primary focus for airlines is to reduce weather related delays, DWR can have great benefits for GA as well in favorable routing for wx avoidance. Some great things may be coming...

https://www.aviationsystems.arc.nasa.gov/research/strategic/dwr.shtml

http://www.atmseminar.org/seminarContent/seminar11/papers/385_McNally_0123150322-Final-Paper-5-20-15.pdf

[L. Trotter]

On 4/12/2017 at 6:29 AM, Mooney_Mike said:

The main reason ATC may not allow a deviation would be for conflicting traffic or an airspace issue such as restricted airspace along your route etc.

It's not ATC's responsibility to keep you from flying into storms that's the pilot's responsibility. So don't blame them or think it's their fault you ended up in a storm. ATC's responsibility is to separate traffic.

If you are out of options and heading into what you perceive as dangerous weather then declare an emergency. That will free ATC up (allow them to focus on you) to solve your problem and get you back on a safe flight path.

I have been an airline pilot for over 20 years, so this all comes from real world experience.

 

You are so right-in a perfect or typical world. The problem was (at the time) I DID ask ATC 3 separate times to deviate for weather and was expressly denied. The controller knew what this issues were. In my case search and rescue had been dispatched to locate the crash scene. A full investigation was completed to include review of radar images and all radio communications. in the end, I received an apology from ATC and was told the controller was "relieved of duty" for additional training.

As I put in my statement ( "6. Finally, don't hesitate to declare an emergency (early) if you feel the situation warrants decisive action.") was the take home message for me. 

I share this experience NOT to beat up on ATC, but to provide "real world experience" that other may learn from. I could keep the experience to myself and deny someone the benefit of an experience that may save their life. I wish some one would have shared with me back then.

[Jerry 5TJ]

16 hours ago, peevee said:

Does anyone worry about getting beat up and dragged off a united flight?

I flew UAL yesterday and wasn't dragged down the aisle even once.  Nice flight, in fact.  

[1964-M20E]

 I have never been denied a deviation for weather from ATC.  In fact on my flight today ATC was offering me deviations for weather that was not there.

Mooney light to moderate precipitation 40 miles ahead at TRADER intersection advise if deviations are needed.

OK will advise but it is clear as far as I can see Mooney 63X

Mooney light to moderate precipitation 20 miles ahead at TRADER intersection advise if deviations are needed.

OK will advise but it is clear as far as I can see Mooney 63X

 

They were even offering deviations for west bound flights around Gulfport again nothing there .  I'm not sure what they were seeing.

 

[Oldguy]

Flying down to KISM from my home airport, I launched into manageable weather until several cells decided to line up and form a nice 75 mile wide section of severe precipitation. ATC called and informed me of it and then asked my intentions. I told them my intention was to turn around and head back to my home drome. They chuckled and cleared me direct. Once on the ground, I was able to map a course that cost me another 30 minutes of time (more flying!) and was relatively smooth all the way there. Take aways for me were:

1. Turning around is always an option even if you don't want it to be.

2. Evaluating weather on the ground beats evaluating it in the air with stress and tension every time.

3. I knew I had to be in KISM in 2 days. I left early to spend time with friends. If it was a "must be there today" situation, Southwest would have been my choice.

I was fortunate in that I had planned my travel to allow for diversions and unexpected overnight stays as I could see the weather might affect my trip. ATC helped me out every step of the way and never gave me any cause for concern they would not. I was never concerned for my or my plane's safety because I got the heads up from ATC 60+ miles out and the ADS-B weather confirmed it about 5 minutes after they called me. By then I had already reversed course.

[75_M20F]

22 hours ago, L. Trotter said:

You are so right-in a perfect or typical world. The problem was (at the time) I DID ask ATC 3 separate times to deviate for weather and was expressly denied. The controller knew what this issues were. In my case search and rescue had been dispatched to locate the crash scene. A full investigation was completed to include review of radar images and all radio communications. in the end, I received an apology from ATC and was told the controller was "relieved of duty" for additional training.

As I put in my statement ( "6. Finally, don't hesitate to declare an emergency (early) if you feel the situation warrants decisive action.") was the take home message for me. 

I share this experience NOT to beat up on ATC, but to provide "real world experience" that other may learn from. I could keep the experience to myself and deny someone the benefit of an experience that may save their life. I wish some one would have shared with me back then.

Fly your filed or approved route, request deviations as necessary for weather avoidance. ATC will normally approve weather deviations as workload and traffic separation allow. If you find yourself in a situation where a deviation can not get approved and you are heading into what you perceive to be a hazardous situation then declare an emergency. Once you declare an emergency the controller is obligated to assist you, and you are free to do what is necessary to return back to a safe situation.

"Asking" ATC for a deviation and getting denied is a weak argument for proceeding into a hazardous situation. You are the pilot in command.

 

 

 

[L. Trotter]

6 hours ago, Mooney_Mike said:

Fly your filed or approved route, request deviations as necessary for weather avoidance. ATC will normally approve weather deviations as workload and traffic separation allow. If you find yourself in a situation where a deviation can not get approved and you are heading into what you perceive to be a hazardous situation then declare an emergency. Once you declare an emergency the controller is obligated to assist you, and you are free to do what is necessary to return back to a safe situation.

"Asking" ATC for a deviation and getting denied is a weak argument for proceeding into a hazardous situation. You are the pilot in command.

 

 

 

With sincerity, I thank you for driving my point home.

As a new instrument pilot (and pilot in command) I had not been in a circumstance that called for such action. Nor did I realize the power/authority that I held as a pilot as it related to ATC. The "system" can be intimidating to some one who just lost their training wheels. ATC was not as friendly back then (as I recall). They have put forth much effort to change their "police like" perception. I am making no argument or excuse for my actions. Just trying to provide a less experienced pilot an example that may be recalled (in a time of need) and give confidence to do what I didn't.

Today, I find ATC extremely helpful and often go out of their way to be of assistance and help us fly safer. I thank them regularly. 

I enjoy sharing what little I know. Teaching and learning from others has always been worthwhile and uplifting to me. I am not a perfect pilot, but strive to be, and do so through the truthful experience of others.....especially on this site.

[carusoam]

ATC also changes personality with respect to region, workload and other things...

The rules don't change, but the perception of ATC can be an additional challenge.

You feel pretty good about yourself the first time you are fitting in with the flow around NYC...

PP thoughts only...

best regards,

-a-

[75_M20F]

5 hours ago, L. Trotter said:

With sincerity, I thank you for driving my point home.

As a new instrument pilot (and pilot in command) I had not been in a circumstance that called for such action. Nor did I realize the power/authority that I held as a pilot as it related to ATC. The "system" can be intimidating to some one who just lost their training wheels. ATC was not as friendly back then (as I recall). They have put forth much effort to change their "police like" perception. I am making no argument or excuse for my actions. Just trying to provide a less experienced pilot an example that may be recalled (in a time of need) and give confidence to do what I didn't.

Today, I find ATC extremely helpful and often go out of their way to be of assistance and help us fly safer. I thank them regularly. 

I enjoy sharing what little I know. Teaching and learning from others has always been worthwhile and uplifting to me. I am not a perfect pilot, but strive to be, and do so through the truthful experience of others.....especially on this site.

We share a common bond of both being teachers and students of this profession.

I have been flying over 30 years total which includes 20+ as an airline pilot, and 15 as a Mooney owner. Yet, I still make mistakes and try to learn from them.

I passed along my ATC "philosophy" in hopes that it will help someone should they get themselves into "that situation". (Guess how I learned it?)

I thank you for posting your experience. I do enjoy reading about real world scenarios and how they played out. It is extremely useful information and certainly plays a role in developing judgement in the participant and the reader alike.

 

[whiskytango]

I have never been denied a deviation, but on one occasion I flew into moderate clear icing, and there was a delayed response from ATC.  I knew there was warm air below and advised ATC that I needed an immediate descent due to moderate icing.  She responded with "Standby".  After 15 seconds she came back with the descent that I needed.  I was ready to declare the "E word" and start the descent, but she did respond just as I was about to key the mic.

[M20F]

My experience has been ATC tries to deviate you or asks if you want before you ever need to ask.  Flying home Friday I would get the light to moderate 5 mile band of showers call from ATC and asked if I wanted to deviate.  

The plane got washed.