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Does anyone else worry about getting denied a deviation in weather?


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I'm a cautious instrument pilot, as evidenced by a reluctance to pick my way through buildups.  A narrow line is no problem but a deep front is one I would avoid, rightly or wrongly.  I've got all the equipment I need - Sirius/XM + a strikefinder - but, I guess, my core worry is being denied a deviation when that equipment shows one is important.  I would be interested in hearing other people's views.  Are others more trusting of ATC flexibility than am I? (What prompts this question is there is a youtube channel called "Niko's Wings".  I just watched him pick his way through about 200 miles of unsettled weather, requesting and getting deviations at least a dozen times.  Had one been denied that put him straight into a big blotch of yellow what would he have done?  Then again, if Niko is cool with it maybe I should be too?

 

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You are responsible for making sure the flight is conducted in a safe manner. I have no problem saying unable if they are vectoring me into what I perceive is an unsafe situation. Likewise I will deviate as needed if I perceive I'm in danger. Obviously we need to try and work within the system in a responsible way and I'm the first to offer ATC any deviation that makes their job easier, as long as it does not put me in harms way. Personally, I have not had a deviation for weather denied. In a few cases we have 'negotiated' a deviation but that's perfectly find in order to find a solution that works for both you and ATC. It's a partnership.


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52 minutes ago, RobertE said:

I'm a cautious instrument pilot, as evidenced by a reluctance to pick my way through buildups.  A narrow line is no problem but a deep front is one I would avoid, rightly or wrongly.  I've got all the equipment I need - Sirius/XM + a strikefinder - but, I guess, my core worry is being denied a deviation when that equipment shows one is important.  I would be interested in hearing other people's views.  Are others more trusting of ATC flexibility than am I? (What prompts this question is there is a youtube channel called "Niko's Wings".  I just watched him pick his way through about 200 miles of unsettled weather, requesting and getting deviations at least a dozen times.  Had one been denied that put him straight into a big blotch of yellow what would he have done?  Then again, if Niko is cool with it maybe I should be too?

 

I have searched and searched but can't find it. There was a really good article by Barry Schiff in AOPA Pilot Magazine about this very subject. His point was that ATC is obligated to give you the deviation. Even if traffic is conflicting. You as PIC are responsible for the safe conduct of your flight. If there is traffic out there, that is ATC's problem. In 11,550 hours of flying since 1985 and seven type ratings, I don't think ATC has ever denied a turn for weather. It is a valid concern though, so be careful.

SP

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I agree with the responses above...I get to negotiate fairly regularly due to dynamic weather in the central plains and South to Texas. I don't recall ever getting denied a requested deviation, and frequently get "deviate as needed, advise back on course." A few times I've bit off way more than I should have and immediately turned, then told ATC what I was doing. Key words like icing, severe turbulence, hail, etc. will get their attention!

One very memorable example was about a year ago when I got in a big downdraft and even some light hail. I violated my rule of avoiding convective stuff visually and my XM was of course delayed compared to real time. I turned away immediately to my escape heading (already in mind) and told them I needed a block altitude as well. It was over quickly, thankfully, and we continued to an alternate airport since there was no safe way to get through the system to our destination. Nothing a rental car and a few hours couldn't fix...

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Thanks, guys.  And I hope to hear the opinions of others as well.

But as something of a detailed follow-up, I know that I'm responsible for the safety of flight and would certainly without hesitation decline a vector into danger but I tend to think that denying a vector is different from insisting on a deviation when denied one.  In the first instance it is not accepting a change and in the other it's insisting on one.  Am I wrong to think they are different?

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Sometimes it's worthwhile to ask if any other airplanes are going through the weather at your altitude. If the answer is no, then it makes it very easy to tell the controller that you'll need a deviation- and he'll certainly understand that you're not a hurricane hunter in a C-130.

If other people are making it through with little to no turbulence, then very likely your XM or ADSB weather is showing simple moderate rain, which shows up as yellow but is not hazardous (except to your leading edge paint.)

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1 hour ago, RobertE said:

I'm a cautious instrument pilot, as evidenced by a reluctance to pick my way through buildups.  A narrow line is no problem but a deep front is one I would avoid, rightly or wrongly.  I've got all the equipment I need - Sirius/XM + a strikefinder - but, I guess, my core worry is being denied a deviation when that equipment shows one is important.  I would be interested in hearing other people's views.  Are others more trusting of ATC flexibility than am I? (What prompts this question is there is a youtube channel called "Niko's Wings".  I just watched him pick his way through about 200 miles of unsettled weather, requesting and getting deviations at least a dozen times.  Had one been denied that put him straight into a big blotch of yellow what would he have done?  Then again, if Niko is cool with it maybe I should be too?

 

I'm in the same boat as you, but down here in FLA, buildups and storms are just a way of life. I rely heavily on controllers to get me around them and thankfully it's always worked out. Not once have I been denied a deviation and more times than not I'm given huge leeway.

Niko flies out of my home drome and hangars his Cirrus right behind my Mooney. I've talked to him a few times and found him to be quite an interesting fellow.

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13 minutes ago, RobertE said:

Thanks, guys.  And I hope to hear the opinions of others as well.

But as something of a detailed follow-up, I know that I'm responsible for the safety of flight and would certainly without hesitation decline a vector into danger but I tend to think that denying a vector is different from insisting on a deviation when denied one.  In the first instance it is not accepting a change and in the other it's insisting on one.  Am I wrong to think they are different?

I don't see any difference and think your over thinking the concern. The other most important thing to do is communicate early. Don't wait till you're a minute away from having to deviate. Communicate to let the controller know your plan and will need to deviate soon. Plus I find it much easier to deviate say 10 degrees away than wait till the nearly the last minute to deviate 30 or 40+ degrees.

When you wait to the last minute, the controller may have a genuine traffic conflict and may not be able to approve your request immediately. As PIC, if you screwed up and truly are out of time before you must deviate e.g., about to penetrate a big buildup, don't just penetrate something you know you have no business doing and instead don't hesitate to use the E word and the controller will move the other traffic out of the way. Professionals never wait till the last minute, neither should you. But it happens a lot on departures where the SID or departure procedure is about to put you into weather and you are asking the controller to deviate as soon as you are checking in with them. This is one of the most common causes of pro's using their emergency authority to deviate when the controller first says unable; their out of time. The NASA database is full of such examples too. So don't hesitate when needed but learn to communicate and deviate sooner rather than waiting. That's when you have time to negotiate, such as taking a different altitude if need be along with the change in heading etc,

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I don't see any difference and think your over thinking the concern. The other most important thing to do is communicate early. Don't wait till you're a minute away from having to deviate. Communicate to let the controller know your plan and will need to deviate soon. Plus I find it much easier to deviate say 10 degrees away than wait till the nearly the last minute to deviate 30 or 40+ degrees.
When you wait to the last minute, the controller may have a genuine traffic conflict and may not be able to approve your request immediately. As PIC, if you screwed up and truly are out of time before you must deviate e.g., about to penetrate a big buildup, don't just penetrate something you know you have no business doing and instead don't hesitate to use the E word and the controller will move the other traffic out of the way. Professionals never wait till the last minute, neither should you. But it happens a lot on departures where the SID or departure procedure is about to put you into weather and you are asking the controller to deviate as soon as you are checking in with them. This is one of the most common causes of pro's using their emergency authority to deviate when the controller first says unable; their out of time. The NASA database is full of such examples too. So don't hesitate when needed but learn to communicate and deviate sooner rather than waiting. That's when you have time to negotiate, such as taking a different altitude if need be along with the change in heading etc,

Well said.


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29 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I'm in the same boat as you, but down here in FLA, buildups and storms are just a way of life. I rely heavily on controllers to get me around them and thankfully it's always worked out. Not once have I been denied a deviation and more times than not I'm given huge leeway.

Niko flies out of my home drome and hangars his Cirrus right behind my Mooney. I've talked to him a few times and found him to be quite an interesting fellow.

Yes, Niko is interesting.  My first impression was just a pretty boy with big muscles and long, blonde hair but I've come to really respect his approach to flying and his running, honest commentary a la, when he sees the temps going from +3 to +1 and doesn't know where the trend will end says "that doesn't make me happy".  Tell him he has a fan in Napa Valley.

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1 hour ago, Southernpilot said:

His point was that ATC is obligated to give you the deviation. Even if traffic is conflicting.

Uh, no. They'll work something out but if there's traffic there's traffic. They can't magically make traffic go away or give you a clearance to bust separation minimums. They have a few tricks up their sleeve however.

 

What you're saying is what the fsdo likes to call a pilot deviation. If it's dire and you can't work something out declare and do what you need I guess I dunno. I try and avoid putting myself in situations with only one out. Your mileage may vary.

 

Communication and early notice is the key. Don't wait until you need to turn NOW. Time equals options.

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SP,

If you can... You might want to explain how you mean what you said.

Since ATC is responsible for separation, they can't very well set you free into known oncoming traffic.

 

For the OP...

It really helps to have  and be very familiar with two sources of weather products... ADSB/XM and Strike finder.  One is a nice graphic with a delay, and the other is real-time.

On the east coast, often, our thunderstorms are imbedded.  Meaning you can't visually see them.  They are hiding in the IMC.  You want your deviation to well determined not a guess or hoping ATC will take care of this for you.  

ATC can be very helpful. But, they are not going to feel everything that you are going to feel.

It would really help to have a full picture of the weather both graphically and real time while getting shuttled around...

 

PP thoughts only, with no recent IFR experience.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

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Most controllers are probably going to be very wary of giving advice. Telling you what they see, absolutely. ie an area of moderate to severe precipitation from your 11 o'clock to your 1 o'clock 10 miles and 5 miles in diameter, tops unknown.

Nexrad only sees precipitation. No strike data. It's actually quite good despite popular opinion. Since it's a mosaic it can be more useful than airborne radar in some circumstances, example a cell behind a line of cells blanketing airborne radars ability to see it.

 

PP thoughts and stayed at a Holiday Express one time in the 90s etc.

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Never, ever, been denied weather deviation.  I've been asked several times when I can get back on course and had to keep saying "not yet".  ATL and JAX center are great at offering suggestions around weather.

I had one comment last year that concerned me when deviating a lot around weather in the Atlanta area and Asked for yet another deviation the controller said "do anything you want you are the only guy out there".   Smooth ride all the way though.  Lee

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I think location is a significant factor.  Anthony mentioned the embedded T-Storms here in the NorthEast.  We also have plenty of ice and plenty of traffic in the NY City area.  This does not make getting deviations the easiest.  Just getting a request in can take several minutes...this should be considered.  In general I've always received ready deviations outside of the NY area, but on several occasions getting a new altitude for ice or lateral deviations can take time and distance.  My only encounter with a T storm was in this very area several years ago with numerous deviations denied.  Today I would declare an emergency and deviate....but I hope not to get myself in that situation again.  I suspect there are a couple of other areas in the country with similar situations.  I am simply suggesting deviations may not be readily available if the airspace is already occupied.  The key is to recognize such airspace in advance and plan accordingly...perhaps planning the flight around such class B airspace.

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Plan ahead, ask early, have options. "unable" is a good word to know. Don't steer into a cell because of a controller in a dark room, just let em know what you're doing if you have no other choice. You're PIC, avoiding a big cell in a little airplane is an emergency...


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There's a young guy who does some videos on YouTube. He recently did a flight from the east coast to the Dakotas to visit family. Passing through the Chicago area at 10,000', he began to pick up a little ice. Asking Chicago for 12,000, the response was, unable due to the traffic flow.  His reply was priceless. "Can you give it to us in another direction?" Immediately, he was given a southbound turn and an instruction to climb to 12,000'.

To answer the OP, no, I don't worry about it. Most of the time, the airspace is not that busy and we may even be the only ones at our altitude. There is always an answer. It may be simple or it may require being definite and understanding that the controller likely has little understanding  of our needs. And, if necessary, there is always the "E" word. Because, after all, that's what it is.

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Also know certain weather phenomenon are really difficult to go around...

The weather in the area around Tornado and fun (6 or 7 years ago?) made a continuous line of thunderstorms from TX to the East coast.  It was busy, wide spread, and few people had ADSB or XM weather. Trying to cross that line without knowledge of where exactly the gaps are was very challenging. The weather phenomenon lasted a week culminating in tornadoes at SNF...

Requesting anything took a long time. I bought an ADSB receiver shortly after that...

I stopped on the ground to pick up a print-out of the latest weather before heading off again... and stayed In VMC for a long time after that....

Pp thoughts only,

Best regards,

-a-

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As a relatively new and inexperienced instrument pilot, I was denied deviation (after 3 separate requests) and routed directly into a thunderstorm! The experience was terrifying and nearly cost my wife and I our lives. This incident occurred over eastern SD (Minneapolis center). Many lessons were learned by all involved. Personally, I believe much has changed over the past approximately 15 years since this mishap.... ATC seems much more helpful (less police like), pilots have access to significantly more real time data in the cockpit, training opportunities are more accessible (like Mooneyspace) and improved safety features in out aircraft. However, one thing remains the same......we as the pilot in command are duty bound to do all in our power to conduct every flight as safe as possible. This includes providing ATC with timely requests-and at times demands. Wether paid to pilot or not, we need to interfaced with ATC as professionals and in the process work together. Controllers are people and people can make mistakes. We need to help them help us. 

What did I learn.....

1. Understand the weather we fly in. 

2. Have a plan A, B and C and update as circumstances change.

3. Communicate your needs to ATC.

4. If for some reason ATC is not helping-let them know how they can be, by making your situation known.

5. Don't be intimidated by the "system" as it will lead you to make unwise decisions.

6. Our Mooney aircraft are amazingly strong and perhaps one of the most safe planes in the air.

6. Finally, don't hesitate to declare an emergency (early) if you feel the situation warrants decisive action.  

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If the weather is really bad you're probably one of the few piston guys up there as laytonl noted so deviations enroute are given freely.  

A few weeks ago eastbound over KY I requested a deviation of 20 degrees right.  ATC replied that I was free to "...go anywhere you want, report back on course, maintain 9,000."

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The main reason ATC may not allow a deviation would be for conflicting traffic or an airspace issue such as restricted airspace along your route etc.

It's not ATC's responsibility to keep you from flying into storms that's the pilot's responsibility. So don't blame them or think it's their fault you ended up in a storm. ATC's responsibility is to separate traffic.

If you are out of options and heading into what you perceive as dangerous weather then declare an emergency. That will free ATC up (allow them to focus on you) to solve your problem and get you back on a safe flight path.

I have been an airline pilot for over 20 years, so this all comes from real world experience.

 

Edited by Mooney_Mike
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You should never need to knowingly fly into weather that you see is dangerous, even if ATC tells you to.  If unable does not work, then you have one more tool in your quiver.  Declare an emergency.  It is an emergency if safety of flight would otherwise be compromised.

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6 hours ago, L. Trotter said:

As a relatively new and inexperienced instrument pilot, I was denied deviation (after 3 separate requests) and routed directly into a thunderstorm! The experience was terrifying and nearly cost my wife and I our lives.

Declare an emergency and do everything you need to get out of the situation. There resulting FAA hearing guarantees you two things.. 1) that you were alive to make it there and 2) the radar returns presented as evidence will clear you.

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Ask early and you shall receive.  I've never been told "no" but I have had controllers get busy and forget me.   Also, don't assume they now more about the weather than you do.    All of my years of flying I've had controllers take care of me with great service.  Let me say that again, Great Service!  That being said, there are times when you have a better picture than they do or more tuned in on that particular day.  Once on departure from North Mrytle I was given a vector into the only giant cumulus build up in the area.   I was inexperienced and assumed he would turn me.  He did not and the ride got rough.  All ended well because short of declaring an emergency I requested a block altitude and "immediate" turn for weather.  The light went off on his end and I got what I needed.   "Immediate" or "With No Delay" seems to work well for me when the situation calls for it.   

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We get long gust fronts here in Texas with the associated long line of thunderstorms. But there are often gaps that can be exploited. I once asked for a deviation and was given it. The controller asked if I had onboard radar. When I said "no, just ADSB weather" he said he'd help me get through the line using his radar, but to let him know if I saw anything out the window I didn't like.

All in all, I use it all the time and find the controllers to always be very accommodating.

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