Jump to content

C vs E, really night and day difference?


Recommended Posts

Hey guys, 

So I'm seriously contemplating getting a Mooney this summer. I'm 18 years old turning 19 in July, and I'm just completing my private. I've been flying in Mooney's since I was 8 months old, and my dad let me fly the 67 F we had when I was 5 and I've just had lots of experience in them, I basically grew up in a Mooney so I know that, that is the plane I have to get. The 2 airplanes I am considering is a C and a E. My question is, the area I live in, British Columbia Canada, is surrounded by the rocky mountains and stuff like that, I don't know if it would be night and day difference between the C with 180 horse, or the E with 200. I know there are lots of reviews and stuff ike that online but I would like to know this from active Mooney pilots. So just thought I'd ask! anything helps really. 

Thanks guys!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome aboard young master M20C...

Affordability is usually a strong driving force for the answer to your question...

1) the fuel injected engine is more powerful and can be run more efficiently with finer control.

2) the more powerful engine is great for getting off the ground and climbs a bit quicker.

3) Both are great planes.

4) when buying one make sure the maintenance is up to date using a PPI, pre purchase Inspection.

5) my family used to fly around a lot in an M20C at 12,500' agl.

Do a lot of reading around here...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Welcome aboard young master M20C...

Affordability is usually a strong driving force for the answer to your question...

1) the fuel injected engine is more powerful and can be run more efficiently with finer control.

2) the more powerful engine is great for getting off the ground and climbs a bit quicker.

3) Both are great planes.

4) when buying one make sure the maintenance is up to date using a PPI, pre purchase Inspection.

5) my family used to fly around a lot in an M20C at 12,500' agl.

Do a lot of reading around here...

Best regards,

-a-

Haha thanks for getting back so soon! Names Trevor, but you can call me M20C if you please. See my thing is I'm currently training in a fuel injected, Garmin G1000 equipped 172, so going from that to a Mooney is different for sure, I'll have to get used to carbueratted like carb heat and stuff. I'm just wondering if it is really night and day difference for power and speed between the E and the C, because like I said I do live in some pretty mountainess terrain up here in canookland, and some peaks are even 12,500. So I'd like to have something thats got some power in case I get into trouble and need it. Hard to explain really what I'm looking for, but I'm so used to flying high and fast, because after our 67 F, we sold it and upgraded to a 82 305 Rocket, and now up further in performance to a Lancair IV-P. My dad has lots of experience as a fellow Mooney pilot, but has never flown a E, but he did do his type rating in a C so he does know a bit about that plane. Just wanted to hear from some experienced Mooniacs if it is beneficial to go with the E or just the C.

Thanks! 

Trev

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For what its worth I've got 55 years flying and 16 in my M20C. I've crossed Colorado, Nevada, Caif, Montana, Oregon, Washington, New Mexico and have done just fine up to  12,500'. After that the climb rate and cruise speed suffer. As an A&P for 50 years I went C for the cost to get in and on going costs. The extra 20 HP will get you 5-10 kts (depending on the airplane) and maybe a little better take off but not so you would really notice it. The E will cost more to overhaul but probably near the same to just maintain. I went with manual gear to avoid all the issues with the electric gear. For my kind of flying the difference in speed really didn't cut it vs costs. Find one with the electronics you want (or can live with) as its cheaper in the long run than to reradio the panel later. 

Who will be paying the technician for annuals and repairs? You? I would recommend a manual gear C to keep the costs to a min. and still have good performance. 

Now, don't by any means, buy a Mooney without a good knowledgeable Mooney mechanic to look it over before the purchase. Search on this forum for what to look for that are the big items.

Glad you signed up here. We were all your age once. Keep up with postings so we can help when needed. Welcome!

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trevor, welcome aboard! You'll find many happy owners of Cs and Es here. As an E owner, I like what I own but I'd admit that Cs, Es, (and Fs for that matter) are more alike than different. If mountain flying is the constant reality and not an occasional trip, you'd want to consider a turbo K but that adds complexity that a new pilot might not want to deal with as well as additional acquisition and operating cost. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I owned a 64E from 1989 to 2012, and my current 65C since 2012.  With about 2200 hours in the E & C my experience is that the C's performance is not that different from the E.  Carb heat is not that big a deal in the C, and I personally prefer the simplicity of a carb over fuel injection.  I would shop for both models, and pick one based on condition, equipment and price.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trev,

our closest Mooney owner in your age group is Alex. Him and his GF have been flying around Florida in a D/C for some time.

His ownership experience started with bringing the plane up to airworthiness standards.  It took some labor, time and money to make it work.

You can find his writing around here easily.  He has included a lot of pics of the projects he has completed.

Overall there isn't much difference between Mooney models.   They get incrementally more expensive with more speed and capabilities...

There are two parts to the Mooney family.  Normally aspirated and Turbo charged (and Turbo normalized).  Having a Turbo allows for climbing well, up into the high teens... and then some.

Keep in mind.. with such great power comes great responsibility.  Collect the Training and experience that go with the tools.

For an interesting read I think you may like...  look for YooperRocketman.  He has posted a few photos of his recently finished L-IVPT.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Trev,

our closest Mooney owner in your age group is Alex. Him and his GF have been flying around Florida in D/C for some time.

His ownership experience started with bringing the plane up to airworthiness standards.  It took some labor, time and money to make it work.

You can find his writing around here easily.  He has included a lot of pics of the projects he has completed.

Overall there isn't much difference between Mooney models.   They get incrementally more expensive with more speed and capabilities...

There are two parts to the Mooney family.  Normally aspirated and Turbo charged (and Turbo normalized).  Having a Turbo allows for climbing well, up into the high teens... and then some.

Keep in mind.. with such great power comes great responsibility.  Collect the Training and experience that go with the tools.

For an interesting read I think you may like...  look for YooperRocketman.  He has posted a few photos of his recently finished L-IVPT.

Best regards,

-a-

 

7 hours ago, cliffy said:

For what its worth I've got 55 years flying and 16 in my M20C. I've crossed Colorado, Nevada, Caif, Montana, Oregon, Washington, New Mexico and have done just fine up to  12,500'. After that the climb rate and cruise speed suffer. As an A&P for 50 years I went C for the cost to get in and on going costs. The extra 20 HP will get you 5-10 kts (depending on the airplane) and maybe a little better take off but not so you would really notice it. The E will cost more to overhaul but probably near the same to just maintain. I went with manual gear to avoid all the issues with the electric gear. For my kind of flying the difference in speed really didn't cut it vs costs. Find one with the electronics you want (or can live with) as its cheaper in the long run than to reradio the panel later. 

Who will be paying the technician for annuals and repairs? You? I would recommend a manual gear C to keep the costs to a min. and still have good performance. 

Now, don't by any means, buy a Mooney without a good knowledgeable Mooney mechanic to look it over before the purchase. Search on this forum for what to look for that are the big items.

Glad you signed up here. We were all your age once. Keep up with postings so we can help when needed. Welcome! 

Hey thanks for the feedback! Yeah I will 100% be going with the Johnson bar, my dad swears by it. Yes when the right plane comes around, I am for sure going to get it looked over by someone familiar with Mooney's! Thanks again for your feedback!!

 

 

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

Trevor, welcome aboard! You'll find many happy owners of Cs and Es here. As an E owner, I like what I own but I'd admit that Cs, Es, (and Fs for that matter) are more alike than different. If mountain flying is the constant reality and not an occasional trip, you'd want to consider a turbo K but that adds complexity that a new pilot might not want to deal with as well as additional acquisition and operating cost.  

Ok thats good to know that they are more alike! Thats kinda what I was hoping to hear. No a K isn't a starter plane for me... maybe it will be a plane in the future. Thanks!

 

1 hour ago, neilpilot said:

I owned a 64E from 1989 to 2012, and my current 65C since 2012.  With about 2200 hours in the E & C my experience is that the C's performance is not that different from the E.  Carb heat is not that big a deal in the C, and I personally prefer the simplicity of a carb over fuel injection.  I would shop for both models, and pick one based on condition, equipment and price. 

Good to know that Carb's aren't  that big of an issue! I am not familiar at all with carb heat and all that stuff, so I'll have to read more. Yes my requirements for a plane is they must have at least somewhat modern avionics.. So thats on the lookout list as well haha, thanks for replying!

 

14 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Trev,

our closest Mooney owner in your age group is Alex. Him and his GF have been flying around Florida in D/C for some time.

His ownership experience started with bringing the plane up to airworthiness standards.  It took some labor, time and money to make it work.

You can find his writing around here easily.  He has included a lot of pics of the projects he has completed.

Overall there isn't much difference between Mooney models.   They get incrementally more expensive with more speed and capabilities...

There are two parts to the Mooney family.  Normally aspirated and Turbo charged (and Turbo normalized).  Having a Turbo allows for climbing well, up into the high teens... and then some.

Keep in mind.. with such great power comes great responsibility.  Collect the Training and experience that go with the tools.

For an interesting read I think you may like...  look for YooperRocketman.  He has posted a few photos of his recently finished L-IVPT.

Best regards,

-a-  

Oh Yes I know Alex, I probably talk with him once a day (since we are young, we both have each other's Facebook, instagram, snapchat...) he's a nice guy! and he is flying his Mooney almost everyday too! Honestly, I mean I can fly turbo'd planes, I mean my dad let me fly the Rocket, land it, takeoff, and such with it numerous amounts of times, and now the same with the Lancair, but I don't wanna kill myself when its just me in the plane and nobody else.. I know I am capable of flying a high performance plane, but for now Im going to start off in a C/E. I need to find one with at least some kinda modern day avionics, like a 430w Garmin GPS at least something like that! Up here in my home airfield in Kelowna (CYLW), I met a couple old fella's that were working on this pretty beat up old c. Turns out the plane sat outside without being flown for 5 years because its pilot died, and the two sons didn't know what to do with it, so they sold it to these guys. Plane on the outside looks rough because the paints gone, and all the avionics are at least from the 70's like nothing modern about the plane at all, but these guys said they are going to repaint it, somewhat fix it up, and sell it. Im debating to jump on that and maybe grab it before paint, so I can repaint it my kinda colours but at the same time, Im thinking I'd might as well find a plane that already has a nice colour, and equipment because it probably be a lot cheaper. After all springs coming, and lots of guys will be posting their planes up for sale I would think!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you have a mechanic that you can work closely with?

I bought a C that sat outside unused for a couple of years back in Y2K. For all the things that you know are wrong with it, expect that there will be some other things that you aren't aware of yet.

Some of the things that seem to be wrong, probably aren't so bad.

Planes that go unused don't age very well.  Planes that sit outside uncovered have a high risk of corroded steal tubes.

Know what you are getting before buying it.  Leaving it to chance will eat up a lot of your dough.

Best regards,

-a-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no experience with an E model but I have a C model. My airport elevation is around 4,000ft and density altitude in the summer often reaches 6,000-7,000ft or more. It is a little anemic during the hottest part of the day but I make it a point to be off the ground well before then anyway because it's just uncomfortable on the ground in that heat. Plan ahead for safety and comfort and it'll take you anywhere you want to go.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Review:

Using the context of night and day.... to describe the differences of a C and E.

1) NA vs TC is night and day difference

2) 200 vs 300hp is night and day difference

3) VFR legal vs IFR legal is night and day difference

3.5) short body vs mid, vs long body is night and day difference

4) Both C and E are NA, not night and day difference...

5) Both C and E are close in HP, not night and day difference...

6) Both C and E can be updated to either being a good VFR or a good IFR platform.

6.5) Both C and E are short body Mooneys, not night and day difference.

Generally...

7) the E gets priced 10 amu higher than a C by the market.

8) the F gets priced 10 amu higher than an E by the market.

9) nice paint can cost 10 amu

10) a nice navcom can cost 10 amu

11) a nice engine OH can cost 20 amu

Can you borrow some of your dad's experience while selecting, inspecting, and purchasing an aircraft?

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I own a C and occasionnally fly Ned's E. They are both 1965 so I can compare the two. The E is definitely faster particularly when you fly above 5K and can pull that knob that bypasses the air filter. I find the E is a bit nose heavy compared by the C but this could be an issue with me. One thing you cannot do with the C is fly lean of peak. This means that the E can be as efficient (perhaps even a bit more) than the C. I still prefer my airplane though... it fits me like a glove.

What is your budget? There is a C (I think it is around year 1974 but not sure) that is in good shape for sale on my field. It will cost you less if you buy a Canadian registered aircraft instead of a US one.

Yves

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, yvesg said:

One thing you cannot do with the C is fly lean of peak. This means that the E can be as efficient (perhaps even a bit more) than the C.

Not exactly correct. It's likely true that an E is easier to fly LOP, but I flew my C LOP regularly. But as a rule, Yves is correct that a fuel injected engine is easier to fly LOP.

I was in this very same dilemma four years ago. I really wanted an E for the performance of the 200hp in a short body Mooney. I ended up buying a C just because I found a much better equipped C available for sale. My experience suggests that its better to get the best airplane available whether it's a C or an E. Look for engine hours, speed mods, good autopilot, WAAS GPS, 6-pack panel arrangement, etc. These things make more of a difference to the utility and enjoyment of the airplane, than the 20hp will.

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

An M20E costs about $10,000 more than an M20C and burns about 1/2 gallon less per hour.  It will take 4,000 hours to make up the difference in cost.  In that time period, you will need 2 engine overhauls, which are more expensive in the M20E.

Price differential: negligible.

The M20E cruises about 5 knots faster than the M20C.  Over a 300 NM flight, that will save you about 5 minutes.

I fly my Mooney for fun.  Therefore, in my M20C, I get to have more fun per flight than an M20E owner.  And I never think twice about a hot start!

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

An M20E costs about $10,000 more than an M20C and burns about 1/2 gallon less per hour.  It will take 4,000 hours to make up the difference in cost.  In that time period, you will need 2 engine overhauls, which are more expensive in the M20E.

Price differential: negligible.

The M20E cruises about 5 knots faster than the M20C.  Over a 300 NM flight, that will save you about 5 minutes.

I fly my Mooney for fun.  Therefore, in my M20C, I get to have more fun per flight than an M20E owner.  And I never think twice about a hot start!

With that logic you ought to own a M18. Or a C150. :rolleyes:

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If your are flying in British Columbia, you will want a turbo.  I would suggest, a turbonormalized E or F.  Keeps maintenance low, has fuel injection for LOP ops. 

Can maintain power to 18,000 ft at least, is a 175 kt airplane at 17,000 ft burning 11 gallons per hour with useful load 1000 lbs.  With Monroy extended tanks, > 15,000 mile range.

What is not to love.

John Breda

You can PM me for more info, I have a lot of experience in the area as I rebuilt a 1968 F to be the airplane I just described.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, M20F-1968 said:

If your are flying in British Columbia, you will want a turbo.  I would suggest, a turbonormalized E or F.  Keeps maintenance low, has fuel injection for LOP ops. 

Can maintain power to 18,000 ft at least, is a 175 kt airplane at 17,000 ft burning 11 gallons per hour with useful load 1000 lbs.  With Monroy extended tanks, > 15,000 mile range.

What is not to love.

John Breda

You can PM me for more info, I have a lot of experience in the area as I rebuilt a 1968 F to be the airplane I just described.

15,000 mile range?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reading the OP's comments you never really discuss budget which can make a big driver in what you choose.  I saw a nice looking turbo 20E on barnstormers.  It seems like the costs are creeping up on most for sale sites.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Close to it (I rounded up a bit)

Plane carries 92 gallons (hold back 12 for reserve)

170 kts at 17,000 ft = 196 mpg

= 80 gallons X (1hr/10g) X (196 kts/1 hr) = 1568 miles

Of course each flight is different but a turbonormalized E or F with long range tanks  gives some favorable numbers.

John Breda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Not exactly correct. It's likely true that an E is easier to fly LOP, but I flew my C LOP regularly. But as a rule, Yves is correct that a fuel injected engine is easier to fly LOP.

I was in this very same dilemma four years ago. I really wanted an E for the performance of the 200hp in a short body Mooney. I ended up buying a C just because I found a much better equipped C available for sale. My experience suggests that its better to get the best airplane available whether it's a C or an E. Look for engine hours, speed mods, good autopilot, WAAS GPS, 6-pack panel arrangement, etc. These things make more of a difference to the utility and enjoyment of the airplane, than the 20hp will.

I totally agree with your logic on looking at both - that would be my approach too if I had to do it again rather than just looking at Cs.

I'm curious though - were you ever able to run all 4 cylinders LOP on your C?  If so, any suggested tricks for this?  I leave the throttle slightly pulled back from WOT and put in a little carb heat - the only mixture distribution tricks I know. Even then,  I can run the leanest cylinder about 20 LOP before it runs rough - at that point the second leanest is roughly stoichiometric and the other two are still ROP.  This is not really the same kind of running LOP as is done with balanced injectors.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mislabeled some units.  Doing that again:

Plane carries 92 gallons (hold back 12 for reserve)

170 kts at 17,000 ft = 196 mph

= 80 gallons X (1hr/10g) X 196 mph = 1568 miles

There is the 1500 mile range.

Of course each flight is different but a turbonormalized E or F with long range tanks  gives some favorable numbers.

John Breda

Speeds at 10,000 ft are reliably = 160 kts, 17,000 =170 kts,

18,000 about 175,000 kts (have not been that high long enough to really test.

Being a bit more conservative:  using 165 kts/hr and 11 gallons / hr

165 kts = 190 mph

80 gallons X (1 hr/11 gallons) X 190 mph =  1382 miles

John Breda

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, mooneym20c said:

Haha thanks for getting back so soon! Names Trevor, but you can call me M20C if you please. See my thing is I'm currently training in a fuel injected, Garmin G1000 equipped 172, so going from that to a Mooney is different for sure, I'll have to get used to carbueratted like carb heat and stuff. I'm just wondering if it is really night and day difference for power and speed between the E and the C, because like I said I do live in some pretty mountainess terrain up here in canookland, and some peaks are even 12,500. So I'd like to have something thats got some power in case I get into trouble and need it. Hard to explain really what I'm looking for, but I'm so used to flying high and fast, because after our 67 F, we sold it and upgraded to a 82 305 Rocket, and now up further in performance to a Lancair IV-P. My dad has lots of experience as a fellow Mooney pilot, but has never flown a E, but he did do his type rating in a C so he does know a bit about that plane. Just wanted to hear from some experienced Mooniacs if it is beneficial to go with the E or just the C.

Thanks! 

Trev

Personally, I'd be hittting dad up for partnership in the Lanceair! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Proof-reading is a virtue:

Mislabeled some units.  Doing that again:

Plane carries 92 gallons (hold back 12 for reserve)

170 kts at 17,000 ft = 196 mph

= 80 gallons X (1hr/10g) X 196 mph = 1568 miles

There is the 1500 mile range.

Of course each flight is different but a turbonormalized E or F with long range tanks  gives some favorable numbers.

John Breda

Speeds at 10,000 ft are reliably = 160 kts, 17,000 =170 kts,

18,000 about 175 kts (have not been that high long enough to really test.

Being a bit more conservative:  using 165 kts/hr and 11 gallons / hr

165 kts = 190 mph

80 gallons X (1 hr/11 gallons) X 190 mph =  1382 miles

John Breda

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DXB said:

I totally agree with your logic on looking at both - that would be my approach too if I had to do it again rather than just looking at Cs.

I'm curious though - were you ever able to run all 4 cylinders LOP on your C?  If so, any suggested tricks for this?  I leave the throttle slightly pulled back from WOT and put in a little carb heat - the only mixture distribution tricks I know. Even then,  I can run the leanest cylinder about 20 LOP before it runs rough - at that point the second leanest is roughly stoichiometric and the other two are still ROP.  This is not really the same kind of running LOP as is done with balanced injectors.  

My C used to be like that. Then I rebuilt the doghouse and carb heat mechanism and can go 20-25° LOP now. Hope to add a monitir soon, the whole dead mag thing is changing my priorities. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I started off looking for an E, but I found a C that caught my attention. When shopping for 40-50 year old planes, you're not going to find a perfect example. Given the minimal real world difference between the two, I'd be fine with either. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.