Dear Philly Approach

[M20F]

On 4/3/2017 at 0:33 PM, 201er said:

Dear Philly Approach, what is with your complete and total obsession with sending anyone and everyone to Modena regardless of where they are going and where they are coming from?

When I come from the south I give them the option of me canceling and going over the top or sticking with them and going direct SBJ when the weather is good.  Generally the chose to capitulate.

[Marauder]

 
Stopped in at RDG this afternoon for dinner. Highly recommend the wings at the terminal if you ever have a chance. I had the standard hot, but my partner had a mix of the garlic and old bay. Nice place for a quick bite or even to spend some time lounging around watching things fly. It was packed with locals so that's always a good sign for an airport restaurant. 
I thought since we were there we should head over to the tower to make sure I'm not completely messed up with how they are set up. Everyone was new since the last time I was in ten years ago but everyone was super friendly and nice just like I remembered. We were there right after shift change so we had plenty of folks eager to show us around. 
I learned a couple of things. One, they are busier than Harrisburg as measured by the number of operations. That surprised me since MDT has a TRSA. That is indeed the reason they have been able to save that approach control position over the years.  Second, the approach control position in the tower came about because of a CFIT accident back in the 70's. Apparently a plane was being vectored in weather, but because of the 'bowl' that RDG sits in, radar contact was lost at a critical time and the plane hit the mountain (hill to you westerners). As a result, radar was added. The bowl of terrain is pretty much the outline of the airspace listed previously in this post. The last little piece of trivia we learned was that in order to not require an elevator, the tower's staircase was built with one less step than the maximum allowed by elevator law. I'll have to look that one up because she might have been pulling my leg.
For some reason they couldn't explain, I assume since radar was added after the tower was built, Approach and Local do sit/stand next to each other. One usually handles just the approach freq and the other does both tower and ground. For our visit, they had a trainee doing ground and running clearance strips. The goal is for everyone to be fully qualified on all of the positions. They said it helps with scheduling. 
Hopefully this adds some value to our discussion, but keep in mind, I'm just a pilot, not an air traffic controller. 
Caption: Shift change at RDG tower. APPCH on the left ground and local on the right. 

I was thinking a bit about your post and wonder if they would be willing to do an airborne IFR clearance. When I fly out of my home airport, I have never had good success trying to pick up an IFR clearance airborne from Philly. I have tried a composite plan, specified a fix and even pleaded while airborne. They just like for you to pick up your clearance on the ground and with a clearance/void time.

I'm wondering if I filed for an airborne pickup near Reading if they would issue it. I also wonder if Philly has any LOAs between them and Harrisburg & Reading. I know picking up my clearance from Philly, I get a more easterly route that usually results in me speaking with Allentown before I get turned more northwest. I tried to file a couple of times toward Lancaster and was put on hold for a while before getting something that was more northwest than east.


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[201er]

Allentown and McGuire are good about airborne IFR pickups. NY/Philly, well let's say they'll spend more time chewing you out than it would take to read the damn clearance! Even if it contains a long rewrite to include Modena!

[PTK]

When the wx is good I'll pickup in the air from McGuire. It's so much easier. Cell coverage is poor and very frustrating to call them from the ground.

[Garryowen]

 

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

was thinking a bit about your post and wonder if they would be willing to do an airborne IFR clearanc

If weather is good enough to get to about 3000' VFR, I don't see any issue with that plan. I would file like you normally do and then when you check in with Reading approach tell them you would like to pick up your IFR, where you're at (just west of BUNTS for example), from what what airport you departed from, and where you're going. You'll have to wait a few minutes while they pull it up. Hence the 3000 foot ceiling you will want since they will probably have to coordinate a little more than just a local APPCH.

I literally just did the local version yesterday. I was VFR from Teterboro to Lancaster and right around the west side of Pottstown I could see the weather ahead dropped down pretty low. I had an IFR in the can ready to go so I called up Reading, got the climb clearance before I even slowed down and ended up on a vector for LNS. Seamless. 

I'm not a fan departing VFR knowing I 'need' IFR without a backup. So another option is N57 VFR to PADRE and picking it up with Harrisburg. Reason is sometimes you're through Reading so quick that its just easier to go straight to MDT for the clearance. To do that you need to be in their airspace and PADRE does that for you. At the end of the day It's not much fun scooting along at 1500' knowing a 2500' MVA is coming up so I sometimes just have to get the clearance on the ground and accept the wrongway routing for a bit.

Holler when you get your plane back together, would love to check it out.

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7679S/history/20170506/1410Z/KJRA/KLNS

[Garryowen]

2 hours ago, 201er said:

Even if it contains a long rewrite to include Modena!

Always includes Modena!! Ugggh

[Marauder]

 
If weather is good enough to get to about 3000' VFR, I don't see any issue with that plan. I would file like you normally do and then when you check in with Reading approach tell them you would like to pick up your IFR, where you're at (just west of BUNTS for example), from what what airport you departed from, and where you're going. You'll have to wait a few minutes while they pull it up. Hence the 3000 foot ceiling you will want since they will probably have to coordinate a little more than just a local APPCH.
I literally just did the local version yesterday. I was VFR from Teterboro to Lancaster and right around the west side of Pottstown I could see the weather ahead dropped down pretty low. I had an IFR in the can ready to go so I called up Reading, got the climb clearance before I even slowed down and ended up on a vector for LNS. Seamless. 
I'm not a fan departing VFR knowing I 'need' IFR without a backup. So another option is N57 VFR to PADRE and picking it up with Harrisburg. Reason is sometimes you're through Reading so quick that its just easier to go straight to MDT for the clearance. To do that you need to be in their airspace and PADRE does that for you. At the end of the day It's not much fun scooting along at 1500' knowing a 2500' MVA is coming up so I sometimes just have to get the clearance on the ground and accept the wrongway routing for a bit.
Holler when you get your plane back together, would love to check it out.
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N7679S/history/20170506/1410Z/KJRA/KLNS

Doing the air pick at Padre might work for me. Philly's MVA is 2200' so if is lower than that I would normally do the ground pick up at N57.

My plane should be finished this week (fingers crossed).


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[201er]

I had a flight from Linden to North East Philly to pick up for PALS. They are really prefer us to be on an IFR for those flights. But I was running a bit late and didn't have an hour to waste on the ground at Linden to get it on the ground and hold for a break in Newark arrivals. As soon as I was out of the NY Bravo, I contacted Philly Approach on 123.8 and requested to get the IFR into their sector. They were like no way that's gonna happen! Not even a pop up. It was already filed and I just needed them to activate it and clear me for a visual but even that wasn't doable.

[Marauder]

I had a flight from Linden to North East Philly to pick up for PALS. They are really prefer us to be on an IFR for those flights. But I was running a bit late and didn't have an hour to waste on the ground at Linden to get it on the ground and hold for a break in Newark arrivals. As soon as I was out of the NY Bravo, I contacted Philly Approach on 123.8 and requested to get the IFR into their sector. They were like no way that's gonna happen! Not even a pop up. It was already filed and I just needed them to activate it and clear me for a visual but even that wasn't doable.

They certainly aren't the Borg, no desire to assimilate anyone's IFR pop up. When I fly to WNY, the airport I fly to has an RCO with Rochester. Every time I call for my clearance, I get "can you depart VFR? If so, call us up on 123.7 when you are airborne".

My guess is the workload.


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[Garryowen]

8 hours ago, 201er said:

I had a flight from Linden to North East Philly to pick up for PALS. They are really prefer us to be on an IFR for those flights. But I was running a bit late and didn't have an hour to waste on the ground at Linden to get it on the ground and hold for a break in Newark arrivals. As soon as I was out of the NY Bravo, I contacted Philly Approach on 123.8 and requested to get the IFR into their sector. They were like no way that's gonna happen! Not even a pop up. It was already filed and I just needed them to activate it and clear me for a visual but even that wasn't doable.

Try this routing next time to PNE and let me know if it works for you: LDJ BALDE TK502 GRIBL PNE. File for 2000'

Before you takeoff, give a heads up call to (516) 683-2849 (data number for EWR S sector for NY APPCH).  Get your clearance and coordinate with them and tell them you will call back when you are number one for departure. You will know when you call if it's going to work or not. I've found offering options to them helpful and words like "I am able to stay below the bravo to BALDE" is what they want to hear. 

[Garryowen]

 

13 hours ago, 201er said:

I contacted Philly Approach on 123.8 and requested to get the IFR into their sector. They were like no way that's gonna happen!

Here's some irony for you. I needed a clearance yesterday to get into the outer ring of the Trump TFRs. I called Philadelphia clearance delivery and they told me to takeoff VFR and call them on 123.8. Called them in the air and got my clearance straight away. He was busier than normal but rattled it off like a pro.

We can't win!!

[Marauder]

 
Here's some irony for you. I needed a clearance yesterday to get into the outer ring of the Trump TFRs. I called Philadelphia clearance delivery and they told me to takeoff VFR and call them on 123.8. Called them in the air and got my clearance straight away. He was busier than normal but rattled it off like a pro.
We can't win!!

Don't worry, once they find out the controller did that, he will end up as a trainee at KILG's training tower.


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[Marauder]

 

Here's some irony for you. I needed a clearance yesterday to get into the outer ring of the Trump TFRs. I called Philadelphia clearance delivery and they told me to takeoff VFR and call them on 123.8. Called them in the air and got my clearance straight away. He was busier than normal but rattled it off like a pro.

We can't win!!

 

Yesterday was a good example of the craziness of the Northeast airspace. I was picking up my plane from a cutout area of Trump's Golfing Expedition (N87). MacGuire AFB was providing "courtesy" VFR squawk codes and departure freqs to make sure no was getting busted near the TFR. I depart, call up MacGuire, give them an IDENT and the controller asks if I wanted them to coordinate with Philly to transition the Bravo. I say "sure!" - thinking in the back of my head this is great service.

 

A minute later the controller comes back and says "Philly doesn't want to take you, squawk VFR, frequency change approved, good luck". Being the crafty old Philly area flyer, I already had programmed the "Ring around the Philly" route.

 

BTW - nice new feature of Garmin Pilot that his shows your flight path.

 

 

After running the gauntlet and seeing the traffic there, I know why they didn't want to handle me. It was a zoo out there and this was the north side of Philly, the arrivals and departures are further south.

 

 

 

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[201er]

So they didn't send you to Modena? They sent you somewhere else 

[Marauder]

So they didn't send you to Modena? They sent you somewhere else 

When I dropped the plane off, my buddy flying me back got a Bravo transition -- guess where to? MODENA!

My guess is when Modena is decommissioned, they will continue to send you to that point in space. It'll be like the Lake Henry VOR decommissioning. Instead of being cleared to LHY, you'll head to LAAYK.

We should help them come up with the new name. "MODEN" is too easy. I like "GTOUT" or "STYOT".


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[Hank]

Philly must be where Atlanta controllers are trained, their favorite words to me are "remain clear of the Bravo." I hear that every time I come close, especially when my destination is on the other side.

Edited July 16, 2017 by Hank

[Ned Gravel]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Philly must be where Atlanta controllers are trained, their favorite words to me are "remain clear of the Bravo." I hear that every time I come close, especially when my destination is on the other side.

Hank:

I have been through Atlanta Bravo a few times without any problem.  I always file IFR and that might be different.  Was it because you were flying VFR, or without a flight plan?

[Hank]

19 minutes ago, Ned Gravel said:

Hank:

I have been through Atlanta Bravo a few times without any problem.  I always file IFR and that might be different.  Was it because you were flying VFR, or without a flight plan?

IFR or VFR; 5000 to 10,000 msl; clipping the very edge, or heading hundreds away straight over ATL. I've never been allowed into the Bravo, and even had requests for T Routes denied. Is it me?? I generally shower in the morning, but how would they know over the radio?

I also hold altitude and course pretty well, admittedly closer when IFR. When VFR, I pick my detour by whichever has better weather, or is closer, zoom in the G430W screen to about 5 nm, and see how close I can keep the wingtip to the green line on the screen. IFR, it's either CINKA or HEFIN, and sometimes if my course is direct enough, they let me choose. Direct course to my parents is about 200 nm over ATL, and remaining clear of the Bravo adds almost 30 minutes to the trip, each way . . . . .

[Ned Gravel]

Hmmm.  

[Marauder]

Hmmm.  

My belief is Hank is the victim of a southern drawl conspiracy.


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[Ned Gravel]

I wasn't going to say that.  But since you did, we Canadians do sound like folks from Minnesota or northern Michigan sometimes, but no one confuses us with folks from Maine or New York.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

My belief is Hank is the victim of a southern drawl conspiracy.


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What, ATL Approach controllers aren't Southern, too? The New Atlanta does have a lot of displaced yankees . . . .

[peevee]

Just now, Hank said:

What, ATL Approach controllers aren't Southern,

no one goes to a80 voluntarily.

[Skates97]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

IFR or VFR; 5000 to 10,000 msl; clipping the very edge, or heading hundreds away straight over ATL. I've never been allowed into the Bravo, and even had requests for T Routes denied. Is it me?? I generally shower in the morning, but how would they know over the radio?

I also hold altitude and course pretty well, admittedly closer when IFR. When VFR, I pick my detour by whichever has better weather, or is closer, zoom in the G430W screen to about 5 nm, and see how close I can keep the wingtip to the green line on the screen. IFR, it's either CINKA or HEFIN, and sometimes if my course is direct enough, they let me choose. Direct course to my parents is about 200 nm over ATL, and remaining clear of the Bravo adds almost 30 minutes to the trip, each way . . . . .

Hank, just to make you jealous... two things from my flight to Idaho Saturday.

First one wasn't Bravo controllers but just SoCal Approach. I was on flight following and there was a guy that had been shooting approaches. He was just finishing up another one and had this conversation.
SoCal: "Did you want me to box you around for another one?"
Pilot: "No, but I have a check-ride in a couple hours if you want to help me out."
SoCal: "Sure, just give me a heads up before you take off and I'll do what I can."

The next one was with the Bravo guys in Vegas. I have always been cleared through heading north-east at 9,500'. I did hear them one time not clear someone through and tell him he needed to jump up to 10,500'. The pilot asked him "Are you okay with me going the wrong direction at ten-five?" The controller came back with "Not a problem, there's not much traffic and I'll keep an eye out for you." The pilot responded with "Thanks, I'll go up to ten-five and then just drop back down after I clear your space."

But, Saturday I heard them giving a guy direct to somewhere, can't remember the fix. I was only half paying attention to the call because it wasn't my tail number...
Vegas: "Did you want direct to xxxx?"
Pilot: "Sure, if you can."
Vegas: "xxxx, cleared direct to xxxx."
Pilot: (read back clearance and then) "Wow, thank you."
Vegas: "We're just here to help out whenever we can."

[201er]

I was flying from New Garden to Farmingdale, following 3nm behind A. Fox in his retractable Skylane. I bet him I'd take off later and arrive sooner. He took off first and then me. I brought the power way back so speeds were even. Philly cleared him and me through bravo direct FRG. 

But NY Approach was even better still. They vectored the Cessna out of my way so I could continue direct through Bravo without that ugly thing spoiling my view! I landed before him.