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Is it a conspiracy to keep the VOR from being decommissioned? Is it a ploy to get more federal funding by showing how much more time controllers have to spend on average per airplane than anywhere else? Does someone the approach control manager dislikes live by Modena? What the deal here!?

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45 minutes ago, 201er said:

Dear Philly Approach, what is with your complete and total obsession with sending anyone and everyone to Modena regardless of where they are going and where they are coming from?

Yup, happens to me every time. Doesn't matter where I am going or what direction/what the flight plan is, of course my home airport is located 5 miles from the VOR so that does not help much. 

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44 minutes ago, 201er said:

Is it a conspiracy to keep the VOR from being decommissioned? Is it a ploy to get more federal funding by showing how much more time controllers have to spend on average per airplane than anywhere else? Does someone the approach control manager dislikes live by Modena? What the deal here!?

YOU are too funny! I have never ever gotten a departure out of N57 without being routed to MXE -- even if I am headed in the opposite direction. I think Modena is a way to keep traffic away from the arrival gate to Philly. 

BTW -- I do hope they keep Modena. It is the only approach to my airport. No RNAVs at this point.

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I should add that I rarely every go to Modena. In fact, if I am headed east, they will tend to vector me north of it even further. 

Mike -- were you in the area over the weekend? I was flying with Chris D as his safety pilot and we spent a fair amount of time over the VOR.

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Just now, Marauder said:

YOU are too funny! I have never ever gotten a departure out of N57 without being routed to MXE -- even if I am headed in the opposite direction. I think Modena is a way to keep traffic away from the arrival gate to Philly. 

BTW -- I do hope they keep Modena. It is the only approach to my airport. No RNAVs at this point.

Wasn't the whole runway repavement thing all about getting LPV?

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I think part of it is "that is the way the ARTCC computer is programmed"   and it does seem like the controllers like to keep you out of their way so they don't override it.  

When coming from the south you will get a re-route talking to Patuxent  approach switching you from your AF V213 ENO V29 route (right over Modena)   to ENO DQO MXE SBJ... which is exactly the same route to Modena.. and then sending you into central NJ rather than via ABE... until you get handed off to ZNY... who immediately vector you direct destination, and depending on the approach to 1N7 either hand you off to ABE, or keep you in ZNY. 

When I flew to Leesburg last year, went down via Lancaster and Fredrick almost direct (IFR for the SFRA)... Filed the same way back... Nope, V419 MXE!! SBJ!!!  so I'm going to blame the computer. 

Silly stuff coming from the west as well, ZNY hands me off to Wilkes Barre approach, who amend the route to ->STW->1N7. (probably due to a LOA with ZNY) .. then hand me off to ABE... who immediately revises it back to ->1N7..  (ABE must have a different LOA with ZNY) 

You get similar things going NE..   File BREZY CMK HFD... the computer will correct you to BREZY V39 CMK V3 HFD.     I bitched at Foreflight years ago about this... the TEC route includes the V#'s... but if you use their "route tool" the FF system strips them out, and then when you file, you don't get AF, since the computer wants them put back in. 

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You can get -> Direct up to about Harrisburg PA... around ABE you will get shoved into the system (say hello to LAAYK).... Same thing westbound.   ETX V30 PSB ->D  and you will get ->D from ZNY as soon as you are handed up to them. 

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2 hours ago, 201er said:

Dear Philly Approach, what is with your complete and total obsession with sending anyone and everyone to Modena regardless of where they are going and where they are coming from?

PHL TRACON handles on the average about 3K airplanes a day. They also handle about half a dozen other airports in addition to PHL.

Does that answer your question?

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26 minutes ago, PaulM said:

I think part of it is "that is the way the ARTCC computer is programmed"   and it does seem like the controllers like to keep you out of their way so they don't override it.  

When coming from the south you will get a re-route talking to Patuxent  approach switching you from your AF V213 ENO V29 route (right over Modena)   to ENO DQO MXE SBJ... which is exactly the same route to Modena.. and then sending you into central NJ rather than via ABE... until you get handed off to ZNY... who immediately vector you direct destination, and depending on the approach to 1N7 either hand you off to ABE, or keep you in ZNY. 

When I flew to Leesburg last year, went down via Lancaster and Fredrick almost direct (IFR for the SFRA)... Filed the same way back... Nope, V419 MXE!! SBJ!!!  so I'm going to blame the computer. 

Silly stuff coming from the west as well, ZNY hands me off to Wilkes Barre approach, who amend the route to ->STW->1N7. (probably due to a LOA with ZNY) .. then hand me off to ABE... who immediately revises it back to ->1N7..  (ABE must have a different LOA with ZNY) 

You get similar things going NE..   File BREZY CMK HFD... the computer will correct you to BREZY V39 CMK V3 HFD.     I bitched at Foreflight years ago about this... the TEC route includes the V#'s... but if you use their "route tool" the FF system strips them out, and then when you file, you don't get AF, since the computer wants them put back in. 

I think you are spot on for this stuff. I also think the Letters of Agreement come into play often as well. If I am flying to KGED, I will get 4,000 feet as a final even though I am flying technically at an odd altitude. I do know Harrisburg and Philly don't have one since everytime I try to file V170 headed east, the Philly controller will tell me he needs to coordinate this with Harrisburg. Life would be a lot easier if these routes were shown somewhere.

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12 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Indeed. It was quite a problem until we got her out of the hole.

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Ummmmmm...you did get her out ... right??!

I'm not going to see this on Forensics Files...am I ??:(

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2 hours ago, Marauder said:

I should add that I rarely every go to Modena. In fact, if I am headed east, they will tend to vector me north of it even further. 

Mike -- were you in the area over the weekend? I was flying with Chris D as his safety pilot and we spent a fair amount of time over the VOR.

I was doing a PALS flight from North East Philly to outside of Charlotte, NC. Going to Charlotte they sent me via Modena. Coming back via Martinsburg and then direct Linden. This would take me north of the Philly bravo somewhere between Allentown C and Philly B. Most direct route for me and would keep me out of everyone's airspace. So instead they make me divert direct Modena, Solberg, Direct. What good does that do them? I was originally going to bypass their bravo and be a good ways away in less busy airspace. And instead they divert me to go into their bravo, spend more time with the controller, spend more time in their airspace. This is why it seems like a conspiracy to have you on their frequency for longer as though they benefit from it somehow!

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I was doing a PALS flight from North East Philly to outside of Charlotte, NC. Going to Charlotte they sent me via Modena. Coming back via Martinsburg and then direct Linden. This would take me north of the Philly bravo somewhere between Allentown C and Philly B. Most direct route for me and would keep me out of everyone's airspace. So instead they make me divert direct Modena, Solberg, Direct. What good does that do them? I was originally going to bypass their bravo and be a good ways away in less busy airspace. And instead they divert me to go into their bravo, spend more time with the controller, spend more time in their airspace. This is why it seems like a conspiracy to have you on their frequency for longer as though they benefit from it somehow!


My guess is they were landing visuals on 27 R & L. They route them over Jersey if they are coming from the west. So pushing you over Modena made sense.




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Here's a layout of the philly airspace. I've had similar  routing discussions with the automation and procedures supervisor at Philly TRACON with some pretty good success in my favor. I fly the TK502/504 route due to icing in the winter and they always want to route me on the higher airways. After  some negotiating he was able to go into the computer system and change the default routing from MXE to the TK routes when  an altitude filing of less than 5000 feet comes in. 

 The reason they bring you through MXE is they are trying to keep you solely in their airspace as you transition through. Normal routing to LDJ from the west would seem to be MRB-PTW-SBJ but doing that puts you into Harrisburg for a bit then philly then reading and back to philly. Due to a  letter of agreement between Potomac and philly, MXE is the agreed upon handoff fix to alleviate working  you through the other sectors.

Don't get me started about the interaction between  Maguire and New York approach. 

Jeff

 

IMG_0006.PNG

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