Long distance neurosis

[carusoam]

Some monitors are able to be primary for a lot of functions...

Some are primary for less.  Checking the details is pretty straight forwards...

EI, JPI and Insight...

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, salty said:

I can afford to have repairs done at almost any repair shop for my car, and I have warrantee protection for major issues.

My point is that the Hassle factor will be about the same for your car or your plane and the chance of it happening are about the same. If the engine goes out in your car you will have to leave it where it is for a while and find alternate transportation to get home. The options are to rent a car and continue your trip or take a taxi to the nearest major airport and fly home. It is no different if your engine goes out in your plane.

I can also tell you from experience that the hassle factor is about the same if you are 100 miles away or 1000 miles away. 

Just about every airport has a mechanic who can work on your plane. 

[salty]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

My point is that the Hassle factor will be about the same for your car or your plane and the chance of it happening are about the same. If the engine goes out in your car you will have to leave it where it is for a while and find alternate transportation to get home. The options are to rent a car and continue your trip or take a taxi to the nearest major airport and fly home. It is no different if your engine goes out in your plane.

I can also tell you from experience that the hassle factor is about the same if you are 100 miles away or 1000 miles away. 

Just about every airport has a mechanic who can work on your plane. 

I do get your point, but it's orders of magnitude more likely I will have a problem with a 50 year old aircraft than my 1 year old car. 

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, salty said:

I do get your point, but it's orders of magnitude more likely I will have a problem with a 50 year old aircraft than my 1 year old car. 

That's not my experience and I have almost 5000 hours in Mooney's. 

[MBDiagMan]

14 minutes ago, salty said:

I do get your point, but it's orders of magnitude more likely I will have a problem with a 50 year old aircraft than my 1 year old car. 

Although a modern fuel injected car engine is incredibly reliable, your aircraft engine was designed from the get go to be incredibly durable and reliable.  If your aircraft engine is properly maintained, monitored and operated, I think it is at least as reliable as your car.

My $0.02,

[DXB]

1 hour ago, salty said:

Adding a G2 or G3 I wouldn't be able to get rid of any instruments in the panel since it doesn't have fuel quantity or ammeter. Is there something equivalent I could use to replace this with? 

I found myJPI EDM900 to be the lowest cost, all-in-one solution for that.  Although the EI products are at least as good in quality, and I'm told their customer service is superior. 

[salty]

That's the only one I found (EDM900) in my quick search that would fit the bill. From what I've read here it seems to be quite a task to install it though and I've heard rumors to avoid JPI's. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by salty

[salty]

32 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

Although a modern fuel injected car engine is incredibly reliable, your aircraft engine was designed from the get go to be incredibly durable and reliable.  If your aircraft engine is properly maintained, monitored and operated, I think it is at least as reliable as your car.

My $0.02,

It's not just the engine that makes a plane airworthy. I can't even remember the last time I've had a car strand me from a purely mechanical failure. Probably when I was in college I lost a head gasket, that was decades ago. Just in the two years I've been flying this plane I've replaced or repaired a starter, vacuum pump, DG, intercom panel, battery, and had to adjust the voltage regulator, all in separate instances of failure. Yeah, each time I replace something that's acting up I feel safer, and probably none of those things would be a big issue if they happened remotely, so I guess talking it through rather than having it fester in the back of my mind is helping process it into real vs imaginary concern.

[DonMuncy]

11 minutes ago, salty said:

That's the only one I found (EDM900) in my quick search that would fit the bill. From what I've read here it seems to be quite a task to install it though and I've heard rumors to avoid JPI's. 

JPI makes fine devices. In the past the company has been difficult to get along with, but I would not hesitate to get another JPI.

[salty]

I need to replace my AI as well. Maybe Garmin will announce an STC for the G3X at SunNFun and make it an easy decision. I'm not that lucky though.

[MBDiagMan]

41 minutes ago, salty said:

It's not just the engine that makes a plane airworthy. I can't even remember the last time I've had a car strand me from a purely mechanical failure. Probably when I was in college I lost a head gasket, that was decades ago. Just in the two years I've been flying this plane I've replaced or repaired a starter, vacuum pump, DG, intercom panel, battery, and had to adjust the voltage regulator, all in separate instances of failure. Yeah, each time I replace something that's acting up I feel safer, and probably none of those things would be a big issue if they happened remotely, so I guess talking it through rather than having it fester in the back of my mind is helping process it into real vs imaginary concern.

Exactly correct!  There is much more to any motor vehicle than the motor, but the thread seemed to be about the engine since being past TBO was the big worry.

BTW, modern auto engines still blow head gaskets.  Once aluminum cylinder heads hit the scene this became and remains a more common occurrence.

[carusoam]

Salty,

Are we really going to compare one year old automobiles to 50 year old airplanes?

Should I post a new thread...?

My wife's car is down for two days... the fuel pump died Saturday afternoon.  It won't be fixed until Monday afternoon.

Familiar with in the tank fuel pumps? They last about 150kmi.  They give very little warning prior to being dead. I got the warning about a month ago... didn't recognize it.

My mechanic called me today with the news.

It is just part of life...

Now, a mechanic calling on Sunday... that is great service!

Make as many friends along the way as possible.  

Thanks for bringing this up... I need another fuel pump/fuel gauge to be installed for another family vehicle... Need to get started on that too....

acquiring parts in advance can help minimize the cost.  Line up some parts. Change them out at annual...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Edited April 3, 2017 by carusoam

[takair]

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

Salty,

Are we really going to compare one year old automobiles to 50 year old airplanes?

Should I post a new thread...?

My wife's car is down for two days... the fuel pump died Saturday afternoon.  It won't be fixed until Monday afternoon.

Familiar with in the tank fuel pumps? They last about 150kmi.  They give very little warning prior to being dead. I got the warning about a month ago... didn't recognize it.

My mechanic called me today with the news.

It is just part of life...

Now, a mechanic calling on Sunday... that is great service!

Make as many friends along the way as possible.  

Best regards,

-a-

 

Anthony

Hate to turn this into an automotive thread, but I'm curious what the warning was prior to pump failure?  I've only had one go a few years ago, but it seemed instantaneous and on a highway.  Ironically, I rolled off the highway and into a gas station!  Since it was low on gas, I added more gas!  Once we got it to a garage, they were not happy with the now full gas tank.  

[carusoam]

Rob,

My wife called me trying to describe it... from the description, I misdiagnosed what she was saying... it was local.  I drove to go get her.  The car worked perfectly when I got there. Drove it home. The sound that a pump makes or doesn't make can be a hint.

My daughter did the same thing to me the other day.  My diagnosis skills are improving.  I brought a few gallons of gas with me.

 

Back to the airplane channel....

1) Engines need fuel.

2) Having crap gauges and not doing anything about them is a bad idea.

3) Fortunately airplanes have two fuel pumps and instrumentation related to the health of the FF.

4) Airplane maintenance is more regimented than automotive maintenance.  Fix as fails is OK for cars. Not so much for planes.

5) If the vehicle throws you a sign.  It's a gift.  Take it!

PP thoughts only.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 3, 2017 by carusoam

[drapo]

5 hours ago, salty said:

Adding a G2 or G3 I wouldn't be able to get rid of any instruments in the panel since it doesn't have fuel quantity or ammeter. Is there something equivalent I could use to replace this with? 

This annual, I decided to upgrade my instruments and get rid of that Garwin gauge. I used Insight G1 for CHT and EGT, Aerospace Logic for Fuel gauges and Oil Temp/press and finally, EI Volt/Amp meter. Those are PMA and have STC's and I don't need the Garwin anymore!

 

For now, it looks like this

[gsxrpilot]

Engine monitors -- don't fly without one.

Best budget engine monitor:  Insight G2
It's got the best screen for a budget monitor, it has the easiest data logging interface with an SD card in the face of the instrument. The built in card will hold more data than you can generate with an engine from brand new to past TBO. To upload the data, just eject the card and copy to your laptop. Super easy. It also includes a fuel flow screen better than any Hoskins and very easy to use. Comparable monitors but definitely inferior are the UGB-16 and the EDM-700.

Most economic engine monitor that can replace all engine gauges: JPI EDM-900
This is a perfectly good engine monitor and is STC's as a replacement for all stock engine gauges including RPM, MP, CHT, EGT, Oil Temp/Pressure, etc. It can be mounted in a 3 1/8 hole, or flush mounted. Includes fuel flow, fuel gauges, works nicely with CiES digital fuel senders.

Top of the line engine monitor replacing all engine gauges: MVP-50
If money is no object, this monitor has the large screen, full featured, and fully configurable. The screen data can be laid out as you prefer. All backed up by EI's legendary support.

Personally I wouldn't spend my money on anything but one of these monitors.

[jlunseth]

I do a fair amount of distance flying with my 231.  I have had major repairs "on the road" several times, and it has never been a problem other than some annoying delay.  I am in Minneapolis.  I had a vacuum pump go out once and got it repaired overnight in Bismarck.  I had an alternator coupler replaced in Bowling Green KY, my local A&P, which was Willmar at the time, overnighted the necessary part.  I had a mag fail a run-up in Olathe, they had one on field and it was just a couple of hours to fix it.  And I had a loss of oil pressure over Canada, found a mechanic to get me back on the road at London ON.  I just look for an airport with an FBO, they typically will have repair services or know where to find them.  Willmar is now Oasis, they also do aircraft recovery if the thing really needs some help, but I have not ever had a problem that big.  I have generally found that the "on the road" mechanics are very helpful and will do whatever is needed to get you back on the road.

[mike_elliott]

43 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

Willmar is now Oasis,

Not quite true, there is not a business evolution relationship. Bruce Jaeger sold the business, Willmar Air service, to Brian, who lost his lease with the city of Willmar. Paul Beck and Eric Rudingen, former employees of Bruce Jaeger, decided to start an A&P business, Oasis Aero, and petitioned the city of Willmar to become the FBO at the airport. They also applied to be an MSC with Mooney. Both events happened. There is not a business relationship between Brian and Oasis, or these events probably would not have happened and proving this was a major hurdle for Paul and Eric to overcome

[Yetti]

As we were bringing the plane back from purchase.  The clouds and hilltops were intermingling.  We landed and did the what now.  He did not want to IFR with an unknown plane.  This generated the "Fly to the most options"   It was Tulsa or an outlying airport.  Tulsa has SWA service.   The Low pressure over New Mexico had been in place for weeks/months.   We flew SWA home.  The good news is Brittian is in Tulsa so the wing leveler got a full overhaul and is one less thing to break.

 

It's all part of the adventure.  An accessory goes out. Fedex and Brown Santa pretty much go anywhere.  Now just need someone with the skills to repair/replace.

[pinerunner]

I think the long distance neurosis is a bit similar to "get-there-itis". If you're prepared to go to plan B then get you're less likely to push on through bad weather or with a plane that's having a problem, just to get back home. If you've got a solid plan B then you won't be afraid to strike out on longer cross-country flights.

Plenty of credit helps so you can take commercial flight home or hole up in a hotel.

Friends in the right places to help hook you up with a good mechanic far from home might make a difference.

I wonder how many have died just because they felt they had to get  home.

[Aviationinfo]

You bought this plane to enjoy it.  Trips are a big reason why we all have Mooney's.  How often are you flying it?  There are things you can do to mitigate your engine's hours.

TBO is actually a mythical number that the manufacturer created to give the industry some basis of depreciation and allow Lycoming some liability protection.  (Yes that was a bit of sarcasm but it's not far from the truth...)   If you read Mike Busch at all, you'll know that an engine that's run as often as possible is at much lower risk.  Corrosion is the problem.   Generally speaking, camshafts and cranks don't just fail catastrophically.   I suppose it has happened, but the likelihood of it happening without some sort of precursor is not large. Perhaps if there's a prop strike in the engine's history the likelihood  is greater.  Busch has also shown that the rate of failure in newly overhauled engines due to "infant mortality" is slightly elevated until the engine reaches roughly 500 hours, if I recall correctly.

If this engine was mine and I was really worried, I'd be religious about changing that oil out at the intervals Busch recommends:  4 months or 50 hours (if you have a filter--you do have a filter installed?)  For most people, it's the calendar time that's limiting, not the hours.   However, you can change it more often than 50 hours even if you have a filter, if that makes you more comfortable.  I think the number for engines without a filter is 25 hours.

I would start the oil analysis right now, have it done with every oil change for the next year, and start logging data points.  It's not that expensive.  That will give you a chance to have your engine compared with the "average" O or IO-360 plus establish a baseline for your engine.   You will also be opening the filter up and getting a look at regular intervals.  This will probably provide some assurance / comfort.

Additionally, watch the compressions, watch the oil usage.  From what I've read and been told, there will be changes in both as the engine ages.  Amazingly, the compressions can be quite low and the engine can still develop full rated hp.   So lowish compression is not a reason in and of itself to overhaul in terms of safety.   But if cam lobes are wearing / spalling, THAT should show up in the oil filter.  (I would think it could also show up in the compressions if it's bad enough.)   If you don't have an oil filter on your engine, IMO it would not be a waste of money to install that kit now, even though it's over TBO.  You could reinstall it after the engine is overhauled too.  

Also---you'd be amazed at how high the oil consumption can be, yet still be within limits.  It's probably on the order of 3 hours per quart, or some similar silly low number.  The info is in the Lycoming Owner's manual.

This engine design is rock solid in terms of reliability.  Don't confuse the engine with the components.   Magnetos have to be attended to, vacuum pumps go bad, starters fail.  Someone else mentioned that taking care of the battery is very much key to having reliability on trips, which is very true.  Is it on a proper (-= not cheap) battery maintainer?  How old is it?

In the end, if none of the above is making you feel better, then you have to do what works for you, which is never wrong.  

[salty]

11 minutes ago, Aviationinfo said:

You bought this plane to enjoy it.  Trips are a big reason why we all have Mooney's.  How often are you flying it?  There are things you can do to mitigate your engine's hours.

TBO is actually a mythical number that the manufacturer created to give the industry some basis of depreciation and allow Lycoming some liability protection.  (Yes that was a bit of sarcasm but it's not far from the truth...)   If you read Mike Busch at all, you'll know that an engine that's run as often as possible is at much lower risk.  Corrosion is the problem.   Generally speaking, camshafts and cranks don't just fail catastrophically.   I suppose it has happened, but the likelihood of it happening without some sort of precursor is not large. Perhaps if there's a prop strike in the engine's history the likelihood  is greater.  Busch has also shown that the rate of failure in newly overhauled engines due to "infant mortality" is slightly elevated until the engine reaches roughly 500 hours, if I recall correctly.

If this engine was mine and I was really worried, I'd be religious about changing that oil out at the intervals Busch recommends:  4 months or 50 hours (if you have a filter--you do have a filter installed?)  For most people, it's the calendar time that's limiting, not the hours.   However, you can change it more often than 50 hours even if you have a filter, if that makes you more comfortable.  I think the number for engines without a filter is 25 hours.

I would start the oil analysis right now, have it done with every oil change for the next year, and start logging data points.  It's not that expensive.  That will give you a chance to have your engine compared with the "average" O or IO-360 plus establish a baseline for your engine.   You will also be opening the filter up and getting a look at regular intervals.  This will probably provide some assurance / comfort.

Additionally, watch the compressions, watch the oil usage.  From what I've read and been told, there will be changes in both as the engine ages.  Amazingly, the compressions can be quite low and the engine can still develop full rated hp.   So lowish compression is not a reason in and of itself to overhaul in terms of safety.   But if cam lobes are wearing / spalling, THAT should show up in the oil filter.  (I would think it could also show up in the compressions if it's bad enough.)   If you don't have an oil filter on your engine, IMO it would not be a waste of money to install that kit now, even though it's over TBO.  You could reinstall it after the engine is overhauled too.  

Also---you'd be amazed at how high the oil consumption can be, yet still be within limits.  It's probably on the order of 3 hours per quart, or some similar silly low number.  The info is in the Lycoming Owner's manual.

This engine design is rock solid in terms of reliability.  Don't confuse the engine with the components.   Magnetos have to be attended to, vacuum pumps go bad, starters fail.  Someone else mentioned that taking care of the battery is very much key to having reliability on trips, which is very true.  Is it on a proper (-= not cheap) battery maintainer?  How old is it?

In the end, if none of the above is making you feel better, then you have to do what works for you, which is never wrong.  

I'm doing all of this and oil analysis, compressions and oil consumption are not concerning. Im flying 8-10 hours a month, usually at least one weekend day if not both. As I said, the engine isn't really worrying me, but it is a reality that I am way over TBO. Someday it will start worrying me, and I'm afraid that day will be when I'm far afield. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by salty

[MBDiagMan]

If you are monitoring oil pressure, compression and watching for metal and most importantly, not letting it run low on oil, the handwriting will be on the wall when the time comes.  Be diligent, fly and be happy.

[jlunseth]

14 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Not quite true, there is not a business evolution relationship. Bruce Jaeger sold the business, Willmar Air service, to Brian, who lost his lease with the city of Willmar. Paul Beck and Eric Rudingen, former employees of Bruce Jaeger, decided to start an A&P business, Oasis Aero, and petitioned the city of Willmar to become the FBO at the airport. They also applied to be an MSC with Mooney. Both events happened. There is not a business relationship between Brian and Oasis, or these events probably would not have happened and proving this was a major hurdle for Paul and Eric to overcome

All true.  All those guys are friends of mine.  Bruce was my instructor for my commercial.  He also owned Willmar Air Service when I first bought my plane and they did quite alot of work on it.  Eric has my plane right now doing the annual, we are waiting on a part from Mooney.  Paul sealed my tanks when I first got the plane.  Oasis is now the MSC at Willmar, I have tried to reach Brian a few times, I heard he was still doing some work a few months ago, but it appears the old Willmar Air Service is no more.  If you want Mooney work you go to Oasis.

[Yetti]

This won't help but it is something to ponder.  Let's take the M1 Abrams tank...  Let's say the parts have a Mean Time Between Failure of one million hours.  Let's say there are 1 million parts on the tank.   By definition the tank should break down once an hour.   In other news a statistician drowned crossing a stream with an average depth of 4 feet.