khedrei Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 This is clearly an old thread but I'm curious if anyone has ever looked into the possibility of Rocket conversions being done in the future. Either by Rocket Engineering or by someone else. Do they still have the STC? Could it be purchased? Is it a volumn/interest or lack of it the reason it isnt offered by them? I wonder if there were 10 or 20 people willing to commit over the course of a couple years maybe it would be worth doing? Or maybe less... 5? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko182 Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 2 hours ago, khedrei said: This is clearly an old thread but I'm curious if anyone has ever looked into the possibility of Rocket conversions being done in the future. Either by Rocket Engineering or by someone else. Do they still have the STC? Could it be purchased? Is it a volumn/interest or lack of it the reason it isnt offered by them? I wonder if there were 10 or 20 people willing to commit over the course of a couple years maybe it would be worth doing? Or maybe less... 5? Someone here stated that if the parts were found, rocket would still do the conversion. it would be a plus 100k conversion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khedrei Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 Does anyone know which parts are hard to come by and who was previously manufacturing them? I could only assume that engine mount and cowling are the big ticket items. I would love to get a group of people together interested in the conversion and plan something out... I'm sure I'll need an engine OH in 5 years time and an LB reman isnt overly desirable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missile=Awesome Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 23 minutes ago, khedrei said: Does anyone know which parts are hard to come by and who was previously manufacturing them? I could only assume that engine mount and cowling are the big ticket items. I would love to get a group of people together interested in the conversion and plan something out... I'm sure I'll need an engine OH in 5 years time and an LB reman isnt overly desirable. There are Rocket Engineering Conversions for sale (Both Rocket and Missile), why not just buy an existing conversion vs. paying huge $ to “convert yours”? The engine would be the biggest “ticket” item in the conversion I would think, right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 Or maybe 0.... As stated above in this thread, demand for these conversions evaporated when the factory started making them better in the form of the Ovation and Bravo and now Acclaim. Much more cost effective to trade up to a longbody than sink probably 3 or 4x the money into what a Missile or Rocket conversion would be worth a year or two later next to all the other older airframe conversions. Parts alone are going to top 100K in todays prices. Nobody is going to get anywhere near their investment back unlike moving up to a newer longbody. A big part of the market attraction, if not all of it, has always been the cost of entry was cheaper than purchasing a Longbody Mooney. Which is exactly the appeal of the 231 over all the later more expensive K's, their mods and conversions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 I think there would be some value in such a conversion to a narrow customer - one who has an airframe they have owned for some time, painted, maintained and upgraded it to the hilt. And they just love it and want to upgrade it. But I think for the most part, value is to sell what you have and buy a rocket or missile as the market has some great values out there, and then upgrade from there the extras. In GA in general, it is hard for new to compete with the legacy of excellent best examples of well maintained used. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missile=Awesome Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 6 minutes ago, kortopates said: Or maybe 0.... As stated above in this thread, demand for these conversions evaporated when the factory started making them better in the form of the Ovation and Bravo and now Acclaim. Much more cost effective to trade up to a longbody than sink probably 3 or 4x the money into what a Missile or Rocket conversion would be worth a year or two later next to all the other older airframe conversions. Parts alone are going to top 100K in todays prices. Nobody is going to get anywhere near their investment back unlike moving up to a newer longbody. A big part of the market attraction, if not all of it, has always been the cost of entry was cheaper than purchasing a Longbody Mooney. Which is exactly the appeal of the 231 over all the later more expensive K's, their mods and conversions. Not sure I agree with this. If you want Ovation and or Acclaim power and have a J or K that is at TBO, but well equipped you like the Mid-Body/Avionics Paint/history of your airframe then perhaps $100k is “worth it”? The competition in the Missile arena is Newish Ovations and Eagle. Can you get into these for $200k used with 300HP? Make that $100k if you have a run out J or K you want to convert... As Mo said previously in this thread...With New unobtanium and Used prices HIGHER than $100k or $200k (to obtain sonar airframe if not owned) there may be a market? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandelay Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 Not sure I agree with this. If you want Ovation and or Acclaim power and have a J or K that is at TBO, but well equipped you like the Mid-Body/Avionics Paint/history of your airframe then perhaps $100k is “worth it”? The competition in the Missile arena is Newish Ovations and Eagle. Can you get into these for $200k used with 300HP? Make that $100k if you have a run out J or K you want to convert... As Mo said previously in this thread...With New unobtanium and Used prices HIGHER than $100k or $200k (to obtain sonar airframe if not owned) there may be a market? Still have all that additional weight and cowling modifications which drive up the price. For the J I think a TN IO390 would be the sweet spot. The little extra HP and having it all the way up to 25,000’ should give you a real 262 mph speed. Up the MGW to 3000lbs to make up for the added weight, minimal or no changes to the cowling, fairly inexpensive in aviation units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 9 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: Still have all that additional weight and cowling modifications which drive up the price. For the J I think a TN IO390 would be the sweet spot. The little extra HP and having it all the way up to 25,000’ should give you a real 262 mph speed. Up the MGW to 3000lbs to make up for the added weight, minimal or no changes to the cowling, fairly inexpensive in aviation units. Does a TNIO390 exist? If we are calling out for wish list for new STCs that don't currently exist then put me down for the 8 cylinder diesel EPS graphite engine. The rocket conversion exists and could be done i am sure if you showed a wad of cash to rocket engineering. But it is more price effective to just buy an already existing converted airplane. TSIO520NB rocket was never about sweet spot. It was and is about extremes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missile=Awesome Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 38 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said: Still have all that additional weight and cowling modifications which drive up the price. For the J I think a TN IO390 would be the sweet spot. The little extra HP and having it all the way up to 25,000’ should give you a real 262 mph speed. Up the MGW to 3000lbs to make up for the added weight, minimal or no changes to the cowling, fairly inexpensive in aviation units. I will take my IO550 burning 12gph at 10500 All day Art. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 2 hours ago, Missile=Awesome said: Not sure I agree with this. If you want Ovation and or Acclaim power and have a J or K that is at TBO, but well equipped you like the Mid-Body/Avionics Paint/history of your airframe then perhaps $100k is “worth it”? The competition in the Missile arena is Newish Ovations and Eagle. Can you get into these for $200k used with 300HP? Make that $100k if you have a run out J or K you want to convert... As Mo said previously in this thread...With New unobtanium and Used prices HIGHER than $100k or $200k (to obtain sonar airframe if not owned) there may be a market? I think the reality is virtually no one is going to sink something $150K+ into their 231 or J model for a Rocket or Missile conversion in today's market. Browsing Controller there are 2 Rockets available now from $140K to $159K for the cost, if not less than, it would take to convert one. There are 19 231's for sale now from $78K to 125K, trading up is only going to be worst case half of what it would cost to convert - if you could. But I think most of those Rockets are overpriced when you can get a 10 year younger Bravo's for sale starting at 120K now with much more useful load, and in competition with the Missile there are 20 year younger Ovations airframes available starting around $150K. I certainly understand the owner that has much emotional investment in their bird after getting it the way they like it - I am one of them! But when we're talking this kind of investment cost you can still can get a lot more for money by trading up. (Sorry Scott, I only saw 1 Missile on Controller for sale with out a price listed) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aviatoreb Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 5 minutes ago, kortopates said: I think the reality is virtually no one is going to sink something $150K+ into their 231 or J model for a Rocket or Missile conversion in today's market. Browsing Controller there are 2 Rockets available now from $140K to $159K for the cost, if not less than, it would take to convert one. There are 19 231's for sale now from $78K to 125K, trading up is only going to be worst case half of what it would cost to convert - if you could. But I think most of those Rockets are overpriced when you can get a 10 year younger Bravo's for sale starting at 120K now with much more useful load, and in competition with the Missile there are 20 year younger Ovations airframes available starting around $150K. I certainly understand the owner that has much emotional investment in their bird after getting it the way they like it - I am one of them! But when we're talking this kind of investment cost you can still can get a lot more for money by trading up. (Sorry Scott, I only saw 1 Missile on Controller for sale with out a price listed) That is not completely comparable since following a rocket/missile conversion at least you are sporting a new engine. Still I would sooner buy one of those two rockets - the 140k one or the 159k one and overhaul the engine if that's what I wanted. And upgrade from there. Come to think of it, that is exactly what I did do. The two big ticket items on my airplane as far as STC conversions are the rocket conversion and the tks system and I let someone else do that and eat the appreciation and then I purchased a nice airplane and I have been gradually improving the over all airplane from there as a 11 year mission of ownership toward an ever improving airplane. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kortopates Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 Just now, aviatoreb said: That is not completely comparable since following a rocket/missile conversion at least you are sporting a new engine. Still I would sooner buy one of those two rockets - the 140k one or the 159k one and overhaul the engine if that's what I wanted. And upgrade from there. Come to think of it, that is exactly what I did do. The two big ticket items on my airplane as far as STC conversions are the rocket conversion and the tks system and I let someone else do that and eat the appreciation and then I purchased a nice airplane and I have been gradually improving the over all airplane from there as a 11 year mission of ownership toward an ever improving airplane. Couldn't agree more, but both of those Rockets available today are actually comparable - The $159K one only has 75 hrs on the engine and the 140K is also still low time at 520 hrs. Plus you also make point I agree with that way we get to high end example of the breed is by making a series of improvements over the years, where each one is justifiable on its own for the value they bring us - the owner. But when it comes to sinking the full cost of what you can buy another example specimen, I think we all think about what else we can buy first to get us there without taking such a huge hit. They wouldn't even be able to insure it for what they put into it if a disaster forced them to start over. I wonder if there is still any Rocket owners in existence that have owned their bird long enough to have done the conversion back in the day? Possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJClark Posted August 6, 2020 Report Share Posted August 6, 2020 Yep buy one of those, or wait for one with a lower time engine, then do this, all financed in the deal. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khedrei Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 6 hours ago, kortopates said: I think the reality is virtually no one is going to sink something $150K+ into their 231 or J model for a Rocket or Missile conversion in today's market. Browsing Controller there are 2 Rockets available now from $140K to $159K for the cost, if not less than, it would take to convert one. There are 19 231's for sale now from $78K to 125K, trading up is only going to be worst case half of what it would cost to convert - if you could. But I think most of those Rockets are overpriced when you can get a 10 year younger Bravo's for sale starting at 120K now with much more useful load, and in competition with the Missile there are 20 year younger Ovations airframes available starting around $150K. I certainly understand the owner that has much emotional investment in their bird after getting it the way they like it - I am one of them! But when we're talking this kind of investment cost you can still can get a lot more for money by trading up. (Sorry Scott, I only saw 1 Missile on Controller for sale with out a price This is kind of where I'm sitting. Paid about 90 CAD for my 231. Put in a couple of expensive annuals the dumped 150 CAD into a top notch avionics suite. I know I wont get that all back and never expected to. I thought about buying a Rocket before doing the avionics but didnt quite feel I needed that much airplane. Plus I also felt I had just worked out the kinks in mine with the expensive annuals and wanted to try and fly my money's worth as I would not have gotten that back. Then I started planning the avionics and didnt want to go through the waiting and hassle of selling and purchasing another plane just to go through all the same things.... working out the kinks in the first couple years of ownership. My interior (while not a big ticket item) is in much better shape than most I've seen. My paint is good though not great. I figure once my engine is run out it will cost me 60+ for the overhaul. At that cost then the conversion isnt quite as steep. I suppose there could be the option of buying that one for 140 USD and spending the labour to swap everything good in mine over to that one and then vice versa and sell mine with the older crap from the rocket...? Still going to cost me 500 hours of labour.... Now that I've gone as far as I have for avionics it's tough to settle for a rocket with much less. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 7, 2020 Report Share Posted August 7, 2020 To see how this has worked in the past.... You can kind of guess how it could work in the future... Rocket Engineering is really good with power plants... And shoe horning them into places they haven’t been... Then engineering all the details that are required to make it useable.... Engine 1) Got this IO550, where should we put it? M20J. Missile. Engine 2) Got this fully developed TSIO520, where does it go? M20K. Rocket. Engine 3) How about this small-ish turbine, Need a six seater to go with that? PA46. PA46T. Quickly you see there is a market for these things... Also there is a specific type of buyer for these things as well... When I first saw the fancy modern cowls for Mooneys... I immediately checked the price... Surprise.... not really. The new cowl cost 1/2 of my plane... more than an OH for the engine... as much as my father in law spent on his new car... (M20C finances) This type of Money is not generally available to a dad, with young kids, looking at college expenses out a couple of decades.... Or recently spent college expenses... There are people that run their own businesses, fly to see customers, and these things make a ton of sense... and get a decent tax treatment... When it is hard to work the numbers for an engine OH... it is immeasurable when looking at replacing the firewall forward with a new STC’d front end... The cool thing... There are MSers that have done this... there are also MSers that have bought planes directly from the factory.... I think Phantom / Gary was the first person I ever talked to that had bought a new Mooney from the factory.... Just because the prices look insurmountable today... doesn’t mean they always will be insurmountable.... just need to find a way to make that forever-plane work out... PP thoughts only... not a finance genius... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khedrei Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 What we need is for Rocket to come up with a nice compact 400HP turboprop for the mid or long body Mooneys. Then we would probably have some real interest. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 400 might be a bit of excess... Having 310 already... I’d be happy to try it and give a fair performance comparison... GoMooney + Rocket Engineering! Best regards, -a- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khedrei Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 For some reason I thought the new Acclaims had 350. They dont even have 300. The lancair has a turboprop. Surely this airframe could handle it. Just a baby one... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 Liquid Rockets got 350... Everyone else is held back to 310HP.... Yeah, held back isn’t really the right words for that... Best regards, -a- 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missile=Awesome Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 On 8/6/2020 at 9:27 PM, khedrei said: This is kind of where I'm sitting. Paid about 90 CAD for my 231. Put in a couple of expensive annuals the dumped 150 CAD into a top notch avionics suite. I know I wont get that all back and never expected to. I thought about buying a Rocket before doing the avionics but didnt quite feel I needed that much airplane. Plus I also felt I had just worked out the kinks in mine with the expensive annuals and wanted to try and fly my money's worth as I would not have gotten that back. Then I started planning the avionics and didnt want to go through the waiting and hassle of selling and purchasing another plane just to go through all the same things.... working out the kinks in the first couple years of ownership. My interior (while not a big ticket item) is in much better shape than most I've seen. My paint is good though not great. I figure once my engine is run out it will cost me 60+ for the overhaul. At that cost then the conversion isnt quite as steep. I suppose there could be the option of buying that one for 140 USD and spending the labour to swap everything good in mine over to that one and then vice versa and sell mine with the older crap from the rocket...? Still going to cost me 500 hours of labour.... Now that I've gone as far as I have for avionics it's tough to settle for a rocket with much less. Paid $85k for our Missile. Has a run out bottom end, but top has only 400. Exhaust was entirely refurbed <300. Beautiful $14k paint and interior leather and ALL plastics and yokes by the master in Texas. <$10k for a dual G5 upgrade and another $7k for a 530w upgrade and 330 ADSB compliant transponder and we are just above $100k...Tank reseal and we have a beautiful Missile for <$110k....Deals are out there and when you spread the “upgrades” by three owners you have a relatively pain free “magic carpet”. Life is good. Missile=Awesome... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 So... For power to weight ratios... Missiles get 300HP Rockets get 305H Screamin’ Eagles get 310HP as do O3s, and Standing O’s... Find the empty weight for each specimen to do the math... Rockets make extra sense if you intend to fly in the FLs... While doing the comparisons... Keep your eye on this thing... Lots of goodies... Fiki, WAAS, G1000, 310hp.. But priced to match... It’s what the Missile grew into... Can you see the future? I started with a C, looked at a J, some MSer was selling their Missile, by the time 2008 happened/finished, I was buying the O... Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missile=Awesome Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 5 minutes ago, carusoam said: So... For power to weight ratios... Missiles get 300HP Rockets get 305H Find the empty weight for each specimen to do the math... Rockets make extra sense if you intend to fly in the FLs... While doing the comparisons... Keep your eye on this thing... Lots of goodies... Fiki, WAAS, G1000, 310hp.. But priced to match... It’s what the Missile grew into... Can you see the future? Best regards, -a- I can and it’s investing $175k vs that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M016576 Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 3 hours ago, khedrei said: What we need is for Rocket to come up with a nice compact 400HP turboprop for the mid or long body Mooneys. Then we would probably have some real interest. Not sure the tail could take that kind of speed.... just looking at Vne.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted August 8, 2020 Report Share Posted August 8, 2020 7 hours ago, khedrei said: What we need is for Rocket to come up with a nice compact 400HP turboprop for the mid or long body Mooneys. Then we would probably have some real interest. They already have done that. Well, they selected a slightly different airframe. I’ve owned two Rocket Engineering JetProps & affirm they are nice machines. Early Meridians are in the same $ range as a what a Mooney turboprop conversion will cost. And you can fly it home today. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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