High FBO fees.

[Mooneymite]

In case any of you missed it, the weekly AOPA newsletter had an interesting piece on fighting the high cost of FBO's.  I was encouraged to see that it actually called out Signature by name and mentioned some locations.  

AOPA battling excessive FBO fees

In my day job, I see the biz jets also get hit, it isn't just about squeezing out the avgas burners.  If we are realistic about the impact, Signature is more dangerous than user fees.  While we can call agree that FBO's have to make money, I know we all have stories of unreasonable charges as outlined by AOPA.

Signature is owned by BBA.....a UK corporation.  Shame!  

[Piloto]

Most of these high price FBOs are at Class B airports. I always go to the Class C or Class D airports. Fuel at these airports is considerable lower price. When planning your trip is always advisable to check FBOs fuel prices.

José

[Mooneymite]

10 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Most of these high price FBOs are at Class B airports. When planning your trip is always advisable to check FBOs fuel prices.

José

Jose' I can agree that "avoidance" is a great survival technique, but what is going on is wrong.  We are being denied access to airports that our dollars go to support by monopolies supported by greedy airport commissions.  The Signature at ATL pays its people the same as at other locations, it pays for electricity just like every other location, and it passes through the ATL charges via landing fees, but it charges $9 for avgas.  And you better like it and buy it because you have no other choice at the tax funded ATL airport.

While we may be able to avoid this FBO, AOPA needs to call attention to this abuse, or every FBO will follow suit and there will be no "work around" no matter where you go.

[peevee]

6 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Jose' I can agree that "avoidance" is a great survival technique, but what is going on is wrong.  We are being denied access to airports that our dollars go to support by monopolies supported by greedy airport commissions.  The Signature at ATL pays its people the same as at other locations, it pays for electricity just like every other location, and it passes through the ATL charges via landing fees, but it charges $9 for avgas.  And you better like it and buy it because you have no other choice at the tax funded ATL airport.

While we may be able to avoid this FBO, AOPA needs to call attention to this abuse, or every FBO will follow suit and there will be no "work around" no matter where you go.

this is that free market that everyone likes around here. let it be, if people go elsewhere and they lose money maybe they'll go out of business.

[1964-M20E]

We have been saying this for a while here.

 

All you need to do is turn on fuel prices on your favorite site that show the airports and then look at who has the high prices and most of the time it is Signature.

[jetdriven]

31 minutes ago, peevee said:

this is that free market that everyone likes around here. let it be, if people go elsewhere and they lose money maybe they'll go out of business.

 It's not a free-market whenever the city Council grants A monopoly for the single FBO to one company and there is no way to access the airport or the ramp without going through their facility and paying their fee.

Edited March 31, 2017 by jetdriven

[Ftlausa]

There appears to be a consolidation among FBOs going on, with Signature being one of the ones acquiring independent FBOs.  The end result of consolidation will be increased prices.  Even though there should be some economies of scale the would allow reductions in prices, there is also monopolization, which is anti-competitive and driving prices up.  If it gets too bad, a call to the FTC might be in order. The FTC and DOJ don't like monopolies and price gouging. 

[EricJ]

I fly rentals out of Scottsdale that buy 100LL fuel from Signature for ~$7.50/gallon.   I don't know how that doesn't show up on somebody's bogosity radar, as anybody else around the area are priced at what you would expect.

 

[aviatoreb]

I do frequent one of the airports specifically cited in the AOPA report, and the report was not accurate in my experience.

Ithaca, NY, KITH was mentioned.  It is a small towered airport.  I go frequently since two of my three sons are current Cornell University students.

AOPA said they charge $200 ramp fees. 

My experience is if you buy 10 gallons of gas ramp fees are waived, and the fee for small airplanes anyway is much less than $200, so it must be a number for big airplanes.  Fuel is expensive - $5.95, so I usually buy just what I need and not top off, but I am not offended. And they have two crew cars one of which is usually available for me to go fetch my boys from campus.

[aviatoreb]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

I do frequent one of the airports specifically cited in the AOPA report, and the report was not accurate in my experience.

Ithaca, NY, KITH was mentioned.  It is a small towered airport.  I go frequently since two of my three sons are current Cornell University students.

AOPA said they charge $200 ramp fees. 

My experience is if you buy 10 gallons of gas ramp fees are waived, and the fee for small airplanes anyway is much less than $200, so it must be a number for big airplanes.  Fuel is expensive - $5.95, so I usually buy just what I need and not top off, but I am not offended. And they have two crew cars one of which is usually available for me to go fetch my boys from campus.  Last time it was fall break, yeah there were a few other parents doing the same thing so I got a cab which cost more....  Oh - and I always grab a "free" bagel.  They have lounge chairs made out of recycles massive first class chairs from some old-school airplane.

 

[peevee]

34 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

 It's not a free-market whenever the city Council grants A monopoly for the single FBO to one company and there is no way to access the airport or the ramp without going through their facility and paying their fee.

Sure it is. You're free to go elsewhere.

[Mooneymite]

1 hour ago, peevee said:

this is that free market that everyone likes around here. let it be, if people go elsewhere and they lose money maybe they'll go out of business.

Peevee, Atlanta is not a free market.  The airport commission has made sure there is but one FBO and it charges top dollar for everything.  Yes, we can freely go to another airport, but ATL is not a private airport....it is a public airport (despite what Delta might believe!).  And we are being over-charged for access to it for a variety of reasons, none of which favor us.  That's not "free market".  That's a manipulated market.  AOPA needs to fight this because it is not getting better, it is getting worse and worse.

We are already second class citizens to the jet crowd, but if we don't fight this, we will be banished from any desirable destinations and confined to using county airports miles from anything further reducing the already limited utility of our aircraft.

[Jerry 5TJ]

From time to time I've been on a cross-country trip and running late into the evening or facing weather I didn't want to deal with.   I knew that I could drop in at a Signature or Atlantic FBO, 24/7, and I could be certain they'll find me a hotel room, take care of the plane, and lend me a crew car or give me a ride to and from the hotel.  

Several times I've flown to Class B airports and stayed a day or two when my destination was close-by.  Often it costs LESS to park my airplane than it would to park my car in the same airport's daily lot. 

I feel privileged to have the choice -- I can fly into Atlanta or Dulles if I want.  Yes, it costs more than at the reliever airports.   My choice. 

I have flown into some of these airports in turboprop and jet aircraft.  Where the Mooney might be charged $25 per night, the P46T would be $75.  And the Eclipse Jet (~ same size as the Mooney) gets hit as a "Jet" at $250 overnight.   So I don't feel like a second-class citizen; if anything we're getting prime treatment at sub-prime prices.  

[peevee]

6 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Peevee, Atlanta is not a free market.  The airport commission has made sure there is but one FBO and it charges top dollar for everything.  Yes, we can freely go to another airport, but ATL is not a private airport....it is a public airport (despite what Delta might believe!).  And we are being over-charged for access to it for a variety of reasons, none of which favor us.  That's not "free market".  That's a manipulated market.  AOPA needs to fight this because it is not getting better, it is getting worse and worse.

We are already second class citizens to the jet crowd, but if we don't fight this, we will be banished from any desirable destinations and confined to using county airports miles from anything further reducing the already limited utility of our aircraft.

There are at least 3 major airports in the area, so the choice is yours.

[Mooneymite]

6 minutes ago, peevee said:

There are at least 3 major airports in the area, so the choice is yours.

My choice would be to use Atlanta and be charged what a free market would dictate.

[Mooneymite]

12 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I feel privileged to have the choice -- I can fly into Atlanta or Dulles if I want.  Yes, it costs more than at the reliever airports.   My choice. 

Jerry5TJ makes a great point.

There are different levels of service required by various users.  When I go to work, my company uses the highest level of service available.  Cookies, catering, newspapers, pretty girls at the front counter, fancy waiting rooms, restrooms with every conceivable amenity (allowed by law) and line service second to none which moves expensive planes to/from the front door as required where access is controlled to TSA standards.  Our customers expect this level of service and expect to pay for it.

However, when I fly myself, I really prefer a small space on the ramp and self-serve gas.

Why should I pay for what I don't want, don't ask for, don't need?

How about different levels of service at different levels of cost?

[neilpilot]

39 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I fly rentals out of Scottsdale that buy 100LL fuel from Signature for ~$7.50/gallon.   I don't know how that doesn't show up on somebody's bogosity radar, as anybody else around the area are priced at what you would expect.

 

When I parked at KSDL last November, I found that I could self-serve fuel near Ross for at least $3/gal less than their full service rate, and then park at Ross and avoid their ramp fee.  Just showed them the self-serve receipt.  Scottsdale ended up being much cheaper than the alternative airports, and way more convenient for me. 

[EricJ]

5 minutes ago, neilpilot said:

When I parked at KSDL last November, I found that I could self-serve fuel near Ross for at least $3/gal less than their full service rate, and then park at Ross and avoid their ramp fee.  Just showed them the self-serve receipt.  Scottsdale ended up being much cheaper than the alternative airports, and way more convenient for me. 

Unfortunately the company I rent from uses Signature for their fuel service and rents the aircraft dry, i.e., when they fill it I pay Signature fuel rates.   When I do cross-country flights, which is usually what I'm doing, I fill it at the last stop before returning to Scottsdale.

[peevee]

23 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

My choice would be to use Atlanta and be charged what a free market would dictate.

Apparently you already are because you and others chose to land there and pay it. What do you suggest? We price fix fbos? I doubt that'll work.

[AndyFromCB]

44 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

My choice would be to use Atlanta and be charged what a free market would dictate.

You are charged exactly what free market is dictating. Free market naturally leads to monopolies. Survival of whomever is the fittest and least scrupulous, just like Standard Oil. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by AndyFromCB

[kevinw]

In the article the TBM pilot says he paid a $200 fee and didn't even shut the engine down. I was under the impression that these fees aren't charged unless you shut down and park.

[Danb]

It's not always clear, I go into KBWI which was mentioned for a drs appt monthly, I get the minimal fuel and pay there fees, I'm out around $80+, for the convience and  get the use of one of the cars at no charge for a few hours, otherwise I could go to a smaller field also get fuels but pay 50-60 dollars for a rental car. For basically twenty or so extra dollars I get quality convenient accommodations. I'm somewhat a nuisance going into a class B it's well worth the cost when necessary. 

[jkhirsch]

Barriers to entry are discouraging.

 

[Mooneymite]

33 minutes ago, peevee said:

Apparently you already are because you and others chose to land there and pay it. What do you suggest? We price fix fbos? I doubt that'll work.

I suggest free market competition on a public use airport.

Given ATL's size more than one FBO would be appropriate.....specifically I'd like to see an FBO down near the south-most runway (which is hated by the airlines due to the long taxi-time).  HOU has lots of FBO's, MDW has lots of FBO's.  ATL, BOS, and MIA are great examples of no-competition price gouging airports.  ILM used to have two FBO's, but now it has one.  Guess what?  Yep....the prices jumped.  Free market indeed.

A public use airport as large as ATL with one FBO avoids competition and the free market.

[jlunseth]

I don't sympathize a lot with the Signatures of the world, but it is not their fault completely.  They get inspected and "fee'd" and regulated up the wazoo by the local airport commission, which doesn't want piston GA traffic to begin with.  Federal law is fairly hostile to local communities attempts to regulate airports to their whim, and so they try to do it by other means, such as coercion of the FBOs, and by inflicting excessive charges on the FBOs knowing that the FBOs will pass those charges on to users.