Jump to content

High FBO fees.


Mooneymite

Recommended Posts

I flew into John Wayne (KSNA) recently and I thought the price I paid at Atlantic was reasonable. 15gal at $6.00 with 0.50c AOPA discount. However, there is competition at KSNA with Signature there. I landed 20L and did try to avoid landing on the taxiway ;-). A visit to Thermal was interesting. 4 ladies all nicely dressed stood in a line with a black carpet rolled out as I taxied in. Incredible service at the Desert Jet centre. Fuel was slightly more expensive but they had a lot of food/drinks for free at the FBO. They are new and there is a lot of competition at Thermal with Palm Springs gouging everyone... Competition is the key to good service and prices.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We won't  have competition until we have data.  I'd like to see AOPA publish the info they're gathering.  Perhaps a Foreflight function that would provide FBO fees just like I can see the fuel prices.  Is there anything similar to 100ll.com for FBOs that I'm unaware of?

edit: also landing fees, discounts, customs ramp fees ......

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Piloto said:

Most of these high price FBOs are at Class B airports. I always go to the Class C or Class D airports. Fuel at these airports is considerable lower price. When planning your trip is always advisable to check FBOs fuel prices.

José

Sort of.

1.  ALWAYS call before you go.  Ask about fuel prices and fees.  I wish FBO's would be forced to publish their fees on line so we can make an informed decision without needing to make a phone call.

2.  When I do an Angel Flight to the Spokane area, I try to avoid GEG (the main airport) like the plague and much prefer to land at SFF downtown.  Spokane is a Class C area.  There are no ramp fees at SFF, and they sell Phillips 66 gas (rebate available for Angel Flight) for a lower price per gallon.  When I called GEG (Signature) about an Angel Flight and asked about ramp fees, it was going to be about $35 - $50 for a pickup even when they knew it was an Angel Flight.  I simply will never fly into GEG.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am more concerned with FBOs/airports being shutdown or restrictions in operating times because of "Noise Abatement"  More and more it is complainants by people that have moved near the airport too.

I will never forget my first complaint.  Sunday May of 2009. it was a beautiful sunny morning and I thought now is a great time to go do some practice landings.  Formal complaint filed that I should have been in church celebrating Mothers Day.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

I suggest free market competition on a public use airport.

Given ATL's size more than one FBO would be appropriate.....specifically I'd like to see an FBO down near the south-most runway (which is hated by the airlines due to the long taxi-time).  HOU has lots of FBO's, MDW has lots of FBO's.  ATL, BOS, and MIA are great examples of no-competition price gouging airports.  ILM used to have two FBO's, but now it has one.  Guess what?  Yep....the prices jumped.  Free market indeed.

A public use airport as large as ATL with one FBO avoids competition and the free market.

I don't think Delta wants those little airplanes clogging up their taxiways and runways.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I don't think Delta wants those little airplanes clogging up their taxiways and runways.

I know that's true!  Unfortunately, Delta doesn't own the airport.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a nearby airport that is a bit nutty on the fees.  KMHR is a class D airport.  They charge $20 just to drop somebody off, unless you buy 10 gallons of fuel.  Their fuel is almost $1 more expensive per gallon than the local class C airport, KSMF.  Makes no sense, especially since there are lots of other nearby airports with good fuel prices, and no crazy fees.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I liked this gem:

"Hartsfield-Jackson has historically charged rates to airlines that are lower than many other large airports."

I guess they make it up from Signature that charges $9/gallon for us little guys.

Somehow I don't think Delta pays the Signature price of $7.66/gallon for jet fuel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

I liked this gem:

"Hartsfield-Jackson has historically charged rates to airlines that are lower than many other large airports."

I guess they make it up from Signature that charges $9/gallon for us little guys.

Somehow I don't think Delta pays the Signature price of $7.66/gallon for jet fuel.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-delta-jetfuel-exclusive-idUSKCN10E0EZ

It looks like they pay closer to $1.00/gal

Edited by N201MKTurbo
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Signature pays a I am guessing a fairly hefty rent rate at ATL it is reasonable to expect the costs of service would be correspondingly higher.  As others have mentioned they are 24x7 and offer services.  When I couldn't get into 47N at 0200 and diverted to MMU they got me a can and I got home versus sleeping in the plane (done that enough over the years where the handling fee is worth it)  

I travel all up and down the East coast from BOS to ATL with all my offices within very close proximity to the major airports. In every case I can find a small GA airport that causes me zero inconvenience and is easier on the pocket book.  For ATL I land at KFTY which is easier to get in and out of then ATL for sure and I buy gas at KCTJ if needed (generally on the way to SDF or BNA).  I spent 30 mins trying to get out of ATL on AA Thursday my experience as GA in the class B's it is often a 15-30 min taxi/wait so I avoid like the plague.  

It isn't hard to find cheap gas and handling if you plan accordingly.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nobody mentioned that the monopoly FBOs that overcharge the most are usually the butt ugliest, oldest, most poorly serviced, unfriendliest FBOs that you can go to. I have found it to be almost law that the quality of service is directly inverse to the price. The cheaper FBOs are better looking, have better service, and much friendlier staff!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, kevinw said:

In the article the TBM pilot says he paid a $200 fee and didn't even shut the engine down. I was under the impression that these fees aren't charged unless you shut down and park.

Does the TBM have single point fueling access? This sounds dicey with the fan blowing up front. Back in the day when I was a ramp rat for Mesaba, we would quickly service the Saab's but only with the left engine shut down. No way I would go near any single engine prop to fuel it with the motor spinning; a helo would be negotiable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does the TBM have single point fueling access? This sounds dicey with the fan blowing up front. Back in the day when I was a ramp rat for Mesaba, we would quickly service the Saab's but only with the left engine shut down. No way I would go near any single engine prop to fuel it with the motor spinning; a helo would be negotiable.

No fuel, just a pick up and the fee to go along. If I roll into an FBO to simply drop off or pick up a person without shutting the engine down I don't feel I should have to pay a ramp fee. Apparently some FBO operators feel differently.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, peevee said:

this is that free market that everyone likes around here. let it be, if people go elsewhere and they lose money maybe they'll go out of business.

The market isn't free.  The supply-side in most places is unnaturally manipulated.

11 hours ago, peevee said:

Sure it is. You're free to go elsewhere.

You neglect to appreciate the supply-side of the market.

11 hours ago, peevee said:

Apparently you already are because you and others chose to land there and pay it. What do you suggest? We price fix fbos? I doubt that'll work.

1) In many areas pilots do not have a choice...all available choices (e.g. all the FBOs in a metropolitan area) operate without real competition.
2) I suggest allowing competition.  Where not feasible (e.g. FBO in the middle of nowhere) operate on a cost-plus-profit model, similar to a water/electric utility.  But the concern related in the AOPA piece is about price gouging (for want of competition in my opinion).

10 hours ago, AndyFromCB said:

You are charged exactly what free market is dictating. Free market naturally leads to monopolies. Survival of whomever is the fittest and least scrupulous, just like Standard Oil. 

But today the market isn't free.  In most places, it's an unnatural oligopoly.

10 hours ago, jlunseth said:

I don't sympathize a lot with the Signatures of the world, but it is not their fault completely.  They get inspected and "fee'd" and regulated up the wazoo by the local airport commission, which doesn't want piston GA traffic to begin with.  Federal law is fairly hostile to local communities attempts to regulate airports to their whim, and so they try to do it by other means, such as coercion of the FBOs, and by inflicting excessive charges on the FBOs knowing that the FBOs will pass those charges on to users. 

-Respectfully, this is a form a Stockholm syndrome of sorts.  I've heard it many times that the FBO is "just the unfortunate middle-man" who is passing on fees from the municipality to the pilot.  Except in rare circumstances, this is nonsense (or at least the fees are passed on with an exorbitant markup). 

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

-I have a full-time career but have been trying to open a FBO for the least 3+ years. 

-Where the tire meets the pavement on the entire FBO oligopoly issue......if you want to see what is preventing competition in FBOs....... look at the "Minimum Standards for Commercial Activity" requirements for any airport in a metropolitan area.  These are online.  Compare the requirements to Minimum Standards at airports on the opposite side of the country.  The requirements are remarkably similar (the result of regulatory capture). The Minimum Stanards read as a basic business plan for a Signature-like organization and look nothing like the mom and pop FBOs of yesteryear...which is what most of us long for and what GA needs.   

-Airport Minimum Standards typically require EACH AND EVERY FBO on the field to offer:   
    -tens of thousands of feet of hangar space
    -maintenance capability for turbine and piston            
    -office space volume that far exceeds the space ever required for a traditional piston FBO

-Signature-like FBOs have no problem with these Minimum Standards.  Everyone else does (i.e. little-guy competitors and consumers). 

-I'm ready/willing to offer fuel, ground transportation, pilots lounge, flight planning, aircraft rental, and ramp space at a cost <20-25% than the sole (oligopoly-like) FBO on the field.  But I can't.  Municipality won't allow it.  So GA piston guys continue to get hosed.  It's the Minimum Standards.  GA guys literally pay a premium (i.e. the extra 20-25%) to subsidize the palatial FBOs that the turbine guys enjoy.  Yet people defend the oligopoly FBOs.  I mean you can't make this stuff up. 
 

 

 

 

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't seen any proposed solutions to the problem. By Aopa or anyone else. The least intrusive option I see is to stop allowing FBOs to purchase other FBOs, but that is pretty darn intrusive. I certainly wouldn't want to see price controls. That would completely break the system put all the small FBOs out of business and our choices would be far worse. 

Edited by salty
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, salty said:

I haven't seen any proposed solutions to the problem. By Aopa or anyone else.

I propose that every airport that receives federal funding provide an adequate area of open ramp space not controlled by an FBO.  Even a monopoly  FBO would have to provide an inducement for pilots to use its facility over the open ramp.  

If you want fuel, coffee, papers, ice, cookies...then pay.  If you don't , then just park.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

John Wayne KSNA, kicked Signature out this month. A new private FBO is set to replace it. We shall see what happens.

There, I was charged $50 in a M20M for picking up a pax. Didn't even shut down. 

Not sad to see them leave,

-Matt

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, MB65E said:

John Wayne KSNA, kicked Signature out this month. A new private FBO is set to replace it. We shall see what happens.

There, I was charged $50 in a M20M for picking up a pax. Didn't even shut down. 

Not sad to see them leave,

-Matt

I suspect that since Signature is a UK company, it is happy with the European model of charging pilots for every service.  While Signature generally provides good service, it never tops the annual list of great FBO's.  As a matter of record,  many of its locations are at the bottom of the list.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Tom, you are saying what I am saying.  What do you think regulation does?  It sets barriers to competition.  This isn't just an aviation problem.  

Regulation shouldn't set barriers to competition anymore than the ref's on the field prevent competition in a football game.  Properly implemented, regulation should ensure that everyone has a fair shake and that everyone, including the minority is protected from predatory business practices. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.