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High FBO fees.


Mooneymite

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I fly in and out of Love Field a few times a year. And a few more times on Southwest. First, these fees won't drive the airlines away at all. The history here has been to artificially handcuff DAL to try to force airlines to use DFW instead. SWA has been bucking that trend for years and it finally paid of with the repeal of the Wright Amendment. DAL is a much more profitable airport than DFW and this won't change that.

Secondly, as much as I don't like user fees, this is not socialism, this is the essence of capitalism. Socialism is everyone pays no matter if you use it or not. It's all for the "greater good." This is now pay only if you use it. If you use the facilities at DAL you'll have to pay. If they'd said, we're not gonna have user fees, we're just gonna raise everyone's taxes to cover the cost of providing services at DAL, that would be socialist.

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1 minute ago, gsxrpilot said:

I fly in and out of Love Field a few times a year. And a few more times on Southwest. First, these fees won't drive the airlines away at all. The history here has been to artificially handcuff DAL to try to force airlines to use DFW instead. SWA has been bucking that trend for years and it finally paid of with the repeal of the Wright Amendment. DAL is a much more profitable airport than DFW and this won't change that.

Secondly, as much as I don't like user fees, this is not socialism, this is the essence of capitalism. Socialism is everyone pays no matter if you use it or not. It's all for the "greater good." This is now pay only if you use it. If you use the facilities at DAL you'll have to pay. If they'd said, we're not gonna have user fees, we're just gonna raise everyone's taxes to cover the cost of providing services at DAL, that would be socialist.

I think the socialism aspect comes in when a 172 is paying the same as a 737

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2 minutes ago, salty said:

I think the socialism aspect comes in when a 172 is paying the same as a 737

As I read the notice... I'm gonna pay $15 for my Mooney and Southwest is gonna pay $778 for a 737. And I actually tie up ATC services longer than the 737 does. I'm much slower on the approach ;)

I was shooting the ILS 13 into DAL and tower told the SWA jet behind me to slow to 160 knots. They complained so tower told them they were number 2 behind a Mooney. "

"Copy, slowing to 160" with a fair amount of resignation in the voice.

I made sure I was fast. I flew it on at 90 knots and took the high speed exit. 

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According to city documents, the fee could be as much as $5.80 per 1,000 pounds in the first year. Commercial carriers currently pay $2.20 per 1,000 pounds. The city cited increasing costs for keeping up with traffic and maintenance needs in its decision to approve the fee. But airport officials also stress that they want to ensure that general aviation pays its “fair share."

Fair share?????

Now I'm just a silly electrical engineer not a civil engineer but to me a 150000# aircraft landing on a runway causes more stress than a 3000# aircraft landing on the runway.  F=MA right??  Doesn't 737 uses 10X the ramp space a Mooney does??  737's need jet ways, terminals etc.??

Fair landing fee to me would be $X per 1,000# then it is all proportional to the amount of services, maintenance and ramp space you are utilizing.

 

don't get me started on property taxes.!@#$@#@@#@

 

 

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1 hour ago, markejackson02 said:

I was surprised that almost 40% of the traffic at DAL was non-airline.  According to the story, the impetus is to drive GA traffic away to Redbird to allow more airline traffic at DAL.

DAL is a huge center for Bizjets.  Lots of maintenance facilities there and a huge number of FBOs.  When DFW was concieved, DAL was going to be just a GA airport.  

Then Herb had a thought....

 

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11 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Did you "flare"........eerrr "round out"........eerrr "transition"?  Ah, never mind.

Tom

At 90 kts a flair would have given new meaning to "exited at the high-speed".  :lol:

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2 hours ago, markejackson02 said:

I was surprised that almost 40% of the traffic at DAL was non-airline.  According to the story, the impetus is to drive GA traffic away to Redbird to allow more airline traffic at DAL.

It's likely to drive more traffic to Addison and Mckinney instead of driving traffic to RBD.  The city is moving North.  There was a story about a maintenance facility moving to RBD which would make sense, but I doubt that will be a significant driver to reduce traffic.  

Addison just tore down 40' T hangars for the development of a new FBO and more jet hangars.  Addison wants to get rid of small props to make more room for aircraft that burn jet A.  Addison is probably the biggest beneficiary of a new landing fee.

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4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Secondly, as much as I don't like user fees, this is not socialism, this is the essence of capitalism. Socialism is everyone pays no matter if you use it or not. It's all for the "greater good." This is now pay only if you use it. If you use the facilities at DAL you'll have to pay. If they'd said, we're not gonna have user fees, we're just gonna raise everyone's taxes to cover the cost of providing services at DAL, that would be socialist.

+1

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Well, I used Signature at KSTL. Was it cheap, no. Did it make financial sense, no. Could I have  used a cheaper option, most likely yes. But, then my family flew commercial, I wanted to have my rental car at hand and all worked out well in terms of how convenient it was.

To be fair, my M20C, as much as I like her, was not the target.

I had a Cirrus Jet, two Gulftreams ,three Citations and a lonely SR 22T parked with me on the ramp.

But then, the attention was great, the coffee was good and the cookies were also tasty. Of course the bill was a shocker. 

Now, on my way to Saint Louis,. I stopped at I69, I wanted to visit Sporty's operations. Quite impressive!!! Highly recommended.

But the nicest thing about it was the treatment...After fighting a 48 Kts headwind right on the nose, I was tired and decided to stay and continue next morning. So I asked about hotel options. I was given a piece of paper with some hotel options and great prices. I called got a nice rate in a Holiday Inn. Then I asked if I could get a taxi or if Uber was available. The lady at the counter told me to use their crew car and that I could keep it until the next day! The car was a newer Ford Edge SUV... I took the car asked them if I had to pay for anything, the answer was NO, just enjoy the rest of the day. There is an interesting WWII Museum on the field, I enjoyed myself and rested at the hotel.

Of course I purchased some stuff at sportys and next day I left...

Conclusion: Small airport, nice and great service: free. However, I was away from the city. Big airport, nice and great service too, but you pay for the location and convenience.

Oscar

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I don't mind being raped up the six in the big city, I rather expect it.  What gets me is big fees at podunk airports in the middle of nowhere.  CVG, in South Euclid Ohio has higher fees than Burke Lakefront right downtown Cleveland!  TDZ is a broken down old airport south of Toledo, fees.  MQS, in the middle of rural Pennsylvania, fees (though they at least had the jets to go with them).

My worry is as these things proliferate they're going to drive up the cost of aviation and drive out more pilots.  Imagine doing your long cross country as a student, landing in the middle of podunk wherever and getting hit with some big fee.  I suspect some folks are going to take up something else in stead.

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12 hours ago, David Herman said:

 The City of St Louis aggressively opposed the idea saying that was “racist.” A few years later American bought TWA ... and now (with the exception of Southwest’s terminal) Lambert Field is a ghost town.

When things are going well, cities (and companies) try to squeeze the little guy as much as they can. Perhaps they would act differently if they had a crystal ball and peered into the future a little to see how it all worked out. Then again..

Moral of the story, what goes around, comes around.

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Haha, we think we have it bad...I am trying to plan a trip to Quebec City this weekend and CYQB (Quebec City International Airport) wants an $80/per night ramp fee. One of the FBOs does not waive the fee with fuel. The other one will waive half of the $80 for one night if I take 160L -- that's 40 GALLONS! Insane. I only paid about $32 to land at KPHL a few weeks ago!

Luckily, there is a private field close by CNV9 which is much more accommodating (to the point where they are even potentially going to let me use the crew car for two days) and am trying to work out to land there. Just will have to pass customs somewhere else beforehand and hope there is no IFR as the airport does not have any instrument approaches.

Edited by AlexLev
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49 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Absolute shame about Love Field.  

This could be a national trend if DAL succeeds.  :o

Do you think they'd even notice a boycott by GA?

Probably not.  SWA would pony up the difference out of the fuel it saved by not sharing capacity with other operators.

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So while we are worrying about the Feds putting in user fees, the airports themselves do it?

Less GA = fewer pilots = fewer commercial carrier pilots = fewer commercial carrier flights = lower revenue for airports = potentially higher fees = less GA = ......

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I have several places noticed that it is cheaper to park my airplane overnight at a big city airport FBO than to park a car in the long-term lot at that same airport.  Hard(er) to bitch about FBO fees when the parked cars are apparently subsidizing me.

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42 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I have several places noticed that it is cheaper to park my airplane overnight at a big city airport FBO than to park a car in the long-term lot at that same airport.  Hard(er) to bitch about FBO fees when the parked cars are apparently subsidizing me.

I parked at ATL for four nights a couple of weeks ago. Cost me $12/night. DAL is going well over that. So does KFAY, a podunk airport where my inlaws live . . . Plus flowage fees. 

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50 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I have several places noticed that it is cheaper to park my airplane overnight at a big city airport FBO than to park a car in the long-term lot at that same airport.  Hard(er) to bitch about FBO fees when the parked cars are apparently subsidizing me.

That's a great point.  I guess the lack of choice is what feels frustrating at times-I fly a ton out of Hartsfield in Atlanta and I can pay from $6 to $32/day depending on the convenience and services desired.  Maybe a menu of options would make people happier.  And the funny thing is I probably go with the $32 parking most often - and never for the $6.

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2 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I have several places noticed that it is cheaper to park my airplane overnight at a big city airport FBO than to park a car in the long-term lot at that same airport.  Hard(er) to bitch about FBO fees when the parked cars are apparently subsidizing me.

Do you have to buy $7/gal gas for the car afterwards?:)

we unfortunately have rvs and boats that compete for our tie down spots at my home field. It is cheaper to tie my plane down than what I pay for my boat but I’m not spending money buying gas for my boat at the storage place. 

  

-Robert

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BBA is the parent of Signature which seems to be buying every FBO it can.  It then squeezes GA....

Now this (from AIN):

BBA Aviation Makes Epic Deal

BBA Aviation, parent company of Signature Flight Support, announced this morning that it will purchase privately held Epic Aviation for $88.1 million. The transaction is subject to government and regulatory approval, and BBA expects it could be wrapped up by the third quarter.

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I sometimes wonder why the major FBOs sell 100LL at all. 

I was at Chicago Midway in the C model 3 years ago, they waived all fees when I had them top off the tanks. It took 14 gallons.  

Today’s 100LL price is $8.09 at KMDW but I doubt they make enough selling gasoline to bother with except as a courtesy.

I’m glad they do.  If I’m tired or diverted by weather I can go to an Atlantic or Signature FBO 24/7 and know they will take care of my plane, find me a hotel and make sure I get there.  

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36 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

I sometimes wonder why the major FBOs sell 100LL at all. 

I was at Chicago Midway in the C model 3 years ago, they waived all fees when I had them top off the tanks. It took 14 gallons.  

Today’s 100LL price is $8.09 at KMDW but I doubt they make enough selling gasoline to bother with except as a courtesy.

I’m glad they do.  If I’m tired or diverted by weather I can go to an Atlantic or Signature FBO 24/7 and know they will take care of my plane, find me a hotel and make sure I get there.  

I suspect the average buyer is buying more than 14 gal. 

-Robert

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