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Made an offer on a C now I need help/advice


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I made a lowball offer on a C today contingent on a title search an PPI at Don Maxwell. I offered to pay for fuel to Maxwell from kmfe, and I stated as long as there was no corrosion and decent compressions I wouldn't use the PPI as a negotiating tool. The plane is 450 miles from Maxwell and the owner doesn't want to deal with getting it there. So I need other options and help, again I really lowballed it but I know it's only a deal if it's not a money pit.  I'm in Columbus Ohio so that doesn't help much. I've been lurking long enough to know; "PPI by a Mooney trusted and known mechanic" and Transition training by a qualified Mooney specific instructor" and I'm trying to follow the gospel.  Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated. 

I'm happy to share more details but I'd rather not post them to the public. 

Lawrence

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3 minutes ago, Mooney_Mike said:

Can't you find a Mooney shop closer? I don't believe it is mandatory to see Mr. Maxwell.

Consider getting a full annual done (instead of must a PPI) at a Mooney shop that is not familiar with that particular airplane . You pay the base price for the annual and the seller pays for all unairworthy squawks. Might cost you $1,500 to $1,800 for this. I personally feel this is better then a PPI as the shop has some skin in the game once they sign it off vs a PPI. A full annual will get a heck of a lot more checked and inspected then any PPI.

 

 

Edited by Mooney_Mike
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Agree with Mike. the seller is advertising and pricing the airplane based on the premise that it is in airworthy condition. Doing a full annual with that payment agreement means that you get a VERY thorough inspection and you hold the owner accountable to their word. 

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Following the gospel is not lowballing the offer.

When a lowball offer goes through, you have just about guaranteed the amount of work you are going to need is huge.

Sending a plane that needs work to an MSC can be really dissapointing.  (My own experience)

Expecting an owner to play along with this idea is doubtful...

If the plane is in top shape.  Send it to the MSC for PPI.  But, top shape planes with a top of the line PPI, command large prices...

 

The challenge with this idea... If there is a single AW issue. How does the owner get his now known, crippled aircraft back home?

If the aircraft has spent every year getting MSC level annuals, the risk is pretty low.  Price is usually high.

If the aircraft hasn't spent any time at the MSC, the risk increases.  Low ball offers get accepted.

 

Tell me that I'm wrong...  

1) hopeful thinking... this plane has great MSC provenance and the owner wants it gone, now!

2) nice possibility... this plane has long ownership and was well cared for by its owner, doesn't want to be involved in selling.

3) terrible possibility...this plane is old and ratty, changed ownership a couple of times in the last decade, has never been to an MSC.

 

When you low ball the offer, what are you expecting?

1) a lot of help from the owner.

2) a lot of agreement with the owner.

3) or goaway kid, ya bother me... from the owner.

 

what are you going to do when an AW issue is unveiled at the PPI.

1) have the owner pay to fix it?  (Good to discuss before the plane moves)

2) adjust the price, and you fix it?

3) walk away as if you weren't involved?

4) did you give this away, when you said you were not going to use the PPI to negotiate the price?

 

Expect the costs of buying the plane belong to the buyer.

1) fuel and pilot to move the plane there and back...

2) insurance to cover the flights

3) the pilot is going to need to get there and back while the plane is in the shop for a few days.

 

Some thing to consider when buying the plane...

1) if you want a sale to happen. Pay the asking price.  'I'm paying your price. But I need these things to go with it...PPI at Maxwell...  (great when buying an O)

2) if you want to lose the confidence of the seller. Negotiate in a strong manner. (Great when taking a chance)

3) if you want to be ignored or have the owner hope you get out bid, use a lowball offer. (Great when all you want is an airframe.)

It really comes down to what you want from the owner...

 

What do you expect from the owner now?

 

PP thoughts only.  I only bought two Mooney, both were from either end of this spectrum.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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It's difficult to say anything that wasn't already quite eloquently explained by @carusoam. But has the offer been accepted? If I was the seller, before we'd even talk about who was doing the PPI, I'd have to accept the offer. Also, there would have to be a deposit made, and a contract signed.  If the "low ball" offer isn't accepted, then there isn't anything further to talk about.  

Compression can be checked by any A&P anywhere. Also, compression isn't an airworthy item unless it's severely low. Usually a contract to buy pending a PPI would only void if there are Airworthy issues discovered that the seller won't pay to fix.

Have you seen the airplane in person yet? Again as the seller, I probably wouldn't talk seriously unless you came and looked at the plane and offered me a cash deposit.

Just my $0.02.

BTW... I'm in Texas and happy to discuss further privately if you like...

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1 hour ago, Mooney_Mike said:

Consider getting a full annual done (instead of must a PPI) at a Mooney shop that is not familiar with that particular airplane . You pay the base price for the annual and the seller pays for all unairworthy squawks. Might cost you $1,500 to $1,800 for this. I personally feel this is better then a PPI as the shop has some skin in the game once they sign it off vs a PPI. A full annual will get a heck of a lot more checked and inspected then any PPI.

I hear this all the time and disagree with it fairly strongly. A pre-purchase inspection is very different from an annual inspection. Each has a specific goal and each accomplishes a specific thing.

In a pre-purchase inspection you define what you want evaluated. It should include flying the airplane to see if it makes book numbers, flies straight and level hands-off, verification that all installed equipment works, an evaluation of the paint, interior and glass, a look to the future on what items are not currently airworthiness items but may be due in the coming 2-5 years as well as any items that have been in service and should be replaced or overhauled.

Does the autopilot work properly, do all the radios and Nav devices work as they should, is the AI slow to spin up, does the DG precess unacceptably, what software versions do the installed GPS and other devices have, will the battery need to be replaced soon, will the vacuum pump need to be replaced soon, will the landing gear discs need to be replaced soon, will the fuel tanks need to be sealed soon, will the magnetos need to be overhauled soon, how old are the spark plugs and ignition harness, what shape are the baffles in ?

NONE of that is required to be done in an annual inspection. 

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I gave a list (similar to Ken's list) to Dr. Don and asked for a PPI that could be turned into an annual if it progressed.  Each radio and nav device was used during the flight to the Maxwell shop.  Everything in the ad had to be working properly

The PPI and the Annual are not the same.  But when buying a plane that costs as much as your house, you want one that turns into the other when it's successfuly completed...

If the plane only costs as much as your car, you can decide how complete your PPI is going to be.

are you spending house AMUs or only car AMUs..?

Best regards,

-a-

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I'll agree with Ken as well but I think it's probably just semantics.  The smart person buying an airplane will have a proper PPI done. Just as Ken has described. But at the same time, assuming the shop is advised in advance, if the PPI is successful and ownership of the plane changes hands, then before the plane is closed back up, it often makes sense to ask the shop to continue to a full annual. This likely saves half the expense of annual and can make timing and financial sense.

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11 minutes ago, carusoam said:

I gave a list (similar to Ken's list) to Dr. Don and asked for a PPI that could be turned into an annual if it progressed.  Each radio and nav device was used during the flight to the Maxwell shop.  Everything in the ad had to be working properly

The PPI and the Annual are not the same.  But when buying a plane that costs as much as your house, you want one that turns into the other when it's successfuly completed...

If the plane only costs as much as your car, you can decide how complete your PPI is going to be.

are you spending house AMUs or only car AMUs..?

Best regards,

-a-

House trailer.

 

just kidding.

 

It's a 69 C it's not even car money. I know that I should spend as much as I can upfront and let someone else pay for the expensive avionics that I can then pay 1/3 of. But this is a plane I can pay cash for, I can afford a good deal of unexpected maintenance or some nice starter avionics upgrades. I can spend a few years doing a different upgrade each year or so and fly it in the meantime. That being said corrosion and engine are my biggest concern. If something else is as critical as those, I'm all ears and want to learn. I'm very excited to possibly join the CB club.

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2 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I hear this all the time and disagree with it fairly strongly. A pre-purchase inspection is very different from an annual inspection. Each has a specific goal and each accomplishes a specific thing.

In a pre-purchase inspection you define what you want evaluated. It should include flying the airplane to see if it makes book numbers, flies straight and level hands-off, verification that all installed equipment works, an evaluation of the paint, interior and glass, a look to the future on what items are not currently airworthiness items but may be due in the coming 2-5 years as well as any items that have been in service and should be replaced or overhauled.

Does the autopilot work properly, do all the radios and Nav devices work as they should, is the AI slow to spin up, does the DG precess unacceptably, what software versions do the installed GPS and other devices have, will the battery need to be replaced soon, will the vacuum pump need to be replaced soon, will the landing gear discs need to be replaced soon, will the fuel tanks need to be sealed soon, will the magnetos need to be overhauled soon, how old are the spark plugs and ignition harness, what shape are the baffles in ?

NONE of that is required to be done in an annual inspection. 

Who cares if you gyros spin up fast or if your GPS data card is current after discover your spar is corroded out on your first annual? (There was a pour soul on here recently with that exact issue after a PPI)

A PPI is not defined it is whatever your guy decides it is.

An annual is defined and it is a serious in depth inspection per the FAA. - You can combine that with a flight test as well.

Each to his own. Buyer beware.....

 

Edited by Mooney_Mike
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1 hour ago, AlexLev said:

I live in Buffalo and did my prebuy at Weber in PA, but the plane was only about 30 miles from there. What are some reputable MSC's near Columbus?

The plane is in Texas and the owner doesn't even want it moved to Maxwell's. I don't think a prebuy in Columbus is an option. 

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4 hours ago, Mooney_Mike said:

Who cares if you gyros spin up fast or if your GPS data card is current after discover your spar is corroded out on your first annual? (There was a pour soul on here recently with that exact issue after a PPI) A PPI is not defined it is whatever your guy decides it is. An annual is defined and it is a serious in depth inspection per the FAA. - You can combine that with a flight test as well. Each to his own. Buyer beware.....

The list I provided was not a comprehensive prepurchase inspection list, it was things that are NOT typically done at an annual inspection that SHOULD be part of a prepurchase inspection. Of course a number of things that are done at annual should also be part of a prepurchase inspection.  Yes a spar inspection is part of that as it an AD search, compression test and many other things.

Let's say some unsuspecting schmuck reads on the internet that you shouldn't do a prepurchase inspection since it isn't defined, he read that you must do an annual instead. And he believes it, and does just that. The airplane went through the annual inspection just fine and now he's a proud owner of a Mooney 231. And then he starts his transition training. And he finds out that really nice S-Tec 55X listed in the spec sheet is toast. And the Garmin 530W/430W combo that he drooled over, is not WAAS at all. And the 430 is an old 28V only model that receives NAV data just fine (and looks like it works) but in a 14V airplane it cannot transmit.

None of that would have been found by doing an annual inspection instead of a proper prepurchase inspection. Oh well, it is only $40k to fix those things. 

Buyer beware . . . indeed !

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Just now, Mooney_Mike said:

All meaningless without a solid airworthy airframe.

And you truly believe you're absolutely guaranteed that with an annual inspection ? I would imagine there are some here that would disagree with that thought process.

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I kind of disagree on a PPI for a plane that costs less than 30-40K  now for a plane that costs 150K  Yep.

Some people think spending 1500 on a PPI and 500 dollars on logistics gets some kind of insurance or guarantee.  Nope the engine could eat a cam the next day.  Just like an annual.  There are different versions of airworthyness.

I would create a history of the logs.   Order the FAA CD see if that starts lining up with the story from the seller.

There are three places to look for corrosion.   Under the rear seat, in the wheel wells, and the first inspection port on the back inside of the wing. Also pull the side panels.

The engine is a crapshoot.

 

 

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McAllen is not too far from Kerrville, the home of the Mooney factory.  On that field is Dugosh.  He is a long time Mooney guru.  He has recently sold the business, but the main man now is David Boerhens(sp?)  they are an MSC and David knows Mooneys with decades of experience and reputation.  They would be a good one for a prebuy.  It is possible that they might go to the plane.

I was in the very same boat as the OP just a few months ago.  PP the plane and go from there.  If you get a fundamentally solid plane and are willing to put in money each year, you can end up with what you want while FLYING.  This is a good plan.  Proceed carefully and make it work.

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As with an Annual Inspection, a PPI has many variations.  Some based on the inspector's version of what is needed, others are based on the purchasers version and finances.

These pages continue to have stories of grief some purchasers encounter through botched jobs.  Why don't we come up with a suggested PPI list for use by purchasers?

Clarence

 

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Thanks for all of the advice. Late last night the guy selling the plane for his friend emailed me video of the plane. I also spoke to Robert from Mooney space "RLCarter" as well as the mechanic that did the last annual. Robert and the mechanic told the same story of the plane making an emergency landing on a dirt road in Mexico and the previous owner taking an engine to Mexico and changing it himself (small red flag). Robert who looked at the plane a few years back recalled a missing logbook, and the mechanic didn't know if it was missing without going through them. Based on the new videos it may not be a unicorn after all and I'm probably going to walk away. I'm going to include what was sent incase I'm wrong, or someone else is interested.

Thanks again, you guys make the search a little more, fun a lot more interesting, and are an incredible resource.

 

Lawrence

 

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