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Mcstealth

"Buying Time" means what?

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I have been offered time in a clients 172. I offhandedly offered to buy time to fly it as he flys infrequently. When I thought about it, I don't truly knows what that buying time actually means.

What does buying time mean? How do you calculate, or charge? Renters insurance or added to the existing policy?

please advise

df

 

Edited by Mcstealth

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buying time means whatever you and the owner decide that it means.

IF the plane was mine and I was the one selling the time it would include a reserve amount for the engine overhaul, insurance, maintenance (oil changes, tires, brakes etc) some general wear and tear and that price would be by the hour meter. Fuel, oil and other operational costs would be the users responsibility.

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Buying time refers to what you do before buying your own Mooney... :)

Just make sure the insurance covers you.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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The FAA and most insurers frown on this. A "minor-interest partnership" might keep it legal. I've done that in the past with positive results.


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7 minutes ago, cnoe said:

The FAA and most insurers frown on this. A "minor-interest partnership" might keep it legal. I've done that in the past with positive results.


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FAA doesn't care as long as the airplane gets 100 hour inspections instead of annuals and does not come equipped with a pilot. Insurance on the other hand, is a different story. His policy would no longer be valid, even if you were a named pilot, if you rented the airplane from him as it would be considered a commercial operation, just like any flight school rental.

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I'm certainly not the person to consult on this. I know how critical the FAA is of shared expenses and I'm not sure they would sign off on a reserve payment for engine, avionics, and general wear and tear. Maybe so; I don't know. I imagine you could borrow/loan a plane to a buddy letting them pay for fuel, oil, etc. but an "hourly charge" sure sounds like "rental" to me, and might to the feds as well. Consult an expert is my advice.


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14 minutes ago, cnoe said:

I'm certainly not the person to consult on this. I know how critical the FAA is of shared expenses and I'm not sure they would sign off on a reserve payment for engine, avionics, and general wear and tear. Maybe so; I don't know. I imagine you could borrow/loan a plane to a buddy letting them pay for fuel, oil, etc. but an "hourly charge" sure sounds like "rental" to me, and might to the feds as well. Consult an expert is my advice.


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Rentals are perfectly legal as long as the aircraft has had an inspection in the last 100 hours. What you cannot do is rent a plane along with a pilot. At that point it becomes a charter operation. It's not the aircraft they are concerned about when it comes to expense sharing, it's the fact that a pilot came along with the aircraft without a charter certificate. 

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3 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

Rentals are perfectly legal as long as the aircraft has had an inspection in the last 100 hours. What you cannot do is rent a plane along with a pilot. At that point it becomes a charter operation. It's not the aircraft they are concerned about when it comes to expense sharing, it's the fact that a pilot came along with the aircraft without a charter certificate. 

100 hour inspections are not required for rentals. 91.409(b) requires them for only two things (quoting):

  • operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire
  • flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides

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3 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

I have been offered time in a clients 172. I offhandedly offered to buy time to fly it as he flys infrequently. When I thought about it, I don't truly knows what that buying time actually means.

What does buying time mean? How do you calculate, or charge? Renters insurance or added to the existing policy?

please advise

df

 

It means you are renting the airplane from the owner, nothing more or less. The arrangements are between you and the owner.  I've been in at least 3 completely different types of those arrangements. A straight rental, just likevwith an FBO, a minimal ownership interest, and time in exchange for flight instruction.

Insurance is a consideration. Some insurers frown on it, others specially permit it to a limited degree. And there is also the problem of your liability for damage to the airplane while you are PIC. The owner's insurance is there to protect the owner. Whether or not it protects you depends on the insurance contract and your treatment under it. It's not uniform.

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8 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

100 hour inspections are not required for rentals. 91.409(b) requires them for only two things (quoting):

  • operate an aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) for hire
  • flight instruction for hire in an aircraft which that person provides

Thank you, I stand corrected. 

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10 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

Thank you, I stand corrected. 

No big deal. It's a very common misunderstanding of the reg. Since most places that rent aircraft also provide training, it's easy to get that impression.

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There are a number of planes at every airport that need to be flown and are literally wasting away. In the last 8 years, I flew a Cherokee 235 and a Skylane in exchange for washing, waxing and assisting with annuals. I also bought a tire or two, a rudder bungee and some oil and filters. The owners, one elderly WWII vet and one busy doctor were delighted to have someone put 50 or so hours a year on their plane that would have otherwise been deteriorating. A renters policy will protect you both. Hang around the FBO, talk to the maintanece shop on your field. You might be surprised what kind of a deal is available.

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4 minutes ago, Chupacabra said:

There are a number of planes at every airport that need to be flown and are literally wasting away. In the last 8 years, I flew a Cherokee 235 and a Skylane in exchange for washing, waxing and assisting with annuals. I also bought a tire or two, a rudder bungee and some oil and filters. The owners, one elderly WWII vet and one busy doctor were delighted to have someone put 50 or so hours a year on their plane that would have otherwise been deteriorating. A renters policy will protect you both. Hang around the FBO, talk to the maintanece shop on your field. You might be surprised what kind of a deal is available.

These deals never fall in my lap

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When I got back into flying I had a similar deal with my neighbor who owned an Arrow at the time.  I never flew by myself but made a number of flights with the 2 of us.  Helped me out tremendously with the insurance when I bought my first Mooney since I already had a number of hour in complex aircraft.

 

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, 1964-M20E said:

When I got back into flying I had a similar deal with my neighbor who owned an Arrow at the time.  I never flew by myself but made a number of flights with the 2 of us.  Helped me out tremendously with the insurance when I bought my first Mooney since I already had a number of hour in complex aircraft.

 

 

 

 

I always liked the arrow. It handled like an old worn out f150 and cruised like a VW beetle with a tired engine but I could always fly it well. Aside from the crappy engine I always thought the turbo arrow wouldn't be bad.

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Okay, let me do my best Carusoam impersonation here...

What I've learned from this thread is:

1. Some planes don't get flown often enough.
2. Some pilots don't have access to planes often enough.
3. These issues may provide some mutual benefit.
4. The FAA isn't overly concerned about private plane rentals.
5. Your insurer or finance company may not be too happy about it though.
6. Check on renters insurance for such situations.
7. Look around and you might find some sweet deals on plane access.
8. Arrows are decent airplanes but they're still not Mooneys.

Not a CFI, A&P, AI, CPA, CFP, FBI, CIA, NSA, PhD, nor an insurance agent, but I DID stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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Hilarious cnoe...
My Falcon insurance policy states that other pilots can fly my a/c if they meet certain training/experience minimums. So what's preventing the OP's client from just letting him fly the 172 for free, OP pays for fuel used? Now if the OP gives his client a nice Christmas gift (

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This month's MAPA log has an article regarding insurance. The author, the President of Falcon Insurance, says that violation of the use clause. He specifically says, "If an aircraft owner rents his aircraft for profit, that will most likely result in a claims declination."

I think before "buying time" I would definitely make sure both the owner and the "time-buyer" were still covered by the insurance policy.

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1 hour ago, cnoe said:

Okay, let me do my best Carusoam impersonation here...

What I've learned from this thread is:

1. Some planes don't get flown often enough.
2. Some pilots don't have access to planes often enough.
3. These issues may provide some mutual benefit.
4. The FAA isn't overly concerned about private plane rentals.
5. Your insurer or finance company may not be too happy about it though.
6. Check on renters insurance for such situations.
7. Look around and you might find some sweet deals on plane access.
8. Arrows are decent airplanes but they're still not Mooneys.

Not a CFI, A&P, AI, CPA, CFP, FBI, CIA, NSA, PhD, nor an insurance agent, but I DID stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.


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HA. :):) 

 

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I have been offered time in a clients 172. I offhandedly offered to buy time to fly it as he flys infrequently. When I thought about it, I don't truly knows what that buying time actually means.

What does buying time mean? How do you calculate, or charge? Renters insurance or added to the existing policy?

please advise

df

 

 

Talk to [mention=14160]"Chocks"[/mention], he's in a similar arrangement right now.

 

Hey good morning,

 

So just to put a perspective on things from a realistic point of view, and avoiding FAR's that have nothing to do with these types of arrangements. This is a situation where you are both helping each other.

In my situation, and how I think all similar situations should go, you are both helping each other and it should be handled as such. 1)Owner does not want partners 2)Owner does not fly aircraft enough, therefore the aircraft will develop higher operating and maintenance costs faster 3)You may not own your own aircraft but are more available to fly 4)Rentals are an option, but that is for "on-demand" needs.

So based on that scenario, it is a wash and you should not need to "offer to buy time". You are not renting the airplane, you are maintaining it. The owner needs to add you on the insurance as an insured party. You pay for your end or tach time of the following: insurance, fuel and regular maintenance. The owner takes care of all hard costs (hangar, annual, overhaul, upgrades, AD's, etc). Remember, they do not want fractional owners and you are saving them money come annual time, I promise. So that's on them (they are going to have to pay for that stuff regardless of your involvement). The owner has carte blanche with availability and can wave your flight off at any time. You contact them anytime you're flying and your plan. In addition, if you break something, you'd better have the available funds to fix it or pay the owner in kind that day, or you don't fly that aircraft, period.

Simple, keeps both parties happy, keeps the plane flying and in good running shape. If you decide you want to help out at annual time, or with the kitty, that's up to you. That's something I will do for [mention=11970]gsxrpilot[/mention] if he ever stops flying his plane more than I fly all my airplanes combined!

 

Edited by "Chocks"

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13 hours ago, "Chocks" said:

 

 

 

Hey good morning,

 4)Rentals are an option, but that is for "on-demand" needs.

Simple, keeps both parties happy, keeps the plane flying and in good running shape. If you decide you want to help out at annual time, or with the kitty, that's up to you. That's something I will do for [mention=11970]gsxrpilot[/mention] if he ever stops flying his plane more than I fly all my airplanes combined! emoji4.png

 

Please clarify #4 for me please.

By the way, watch out for @gsxrpilot, I think he is a closet CBR kind of guy. 

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I believe he means that going down to the local FBO and renting an airplane is fine for those times when you need one for a specific purpose. But it's just too expensive and not practical for either travel or just scratching the flying itch.

And I've actually never owned a CBR ;) Yamaha's, Suzuki's, KTM's, BMW's, but never a Honda.

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