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Pressurized Business Aircraft Pro Formas


Seth

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3 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

And two engines that will cost about $200K in 300 hours and add maybe $50K to the value if you can find someone to sell it to. No thanks.

300 hours puts the engines at 1085 SMOH. Why 300 hours? in '76 the TBO was apparently increased to 1600 hours on them.

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Just now, peevee said:

300 hours puts the engines at 1085 SMOH. Why 300 hours?

Because that's about what they last, between 1000 to 1200 hours. 300 put it right in the middle. I think the official TBO is 1600 hours up from 1200 originally, but that was just a paper increase. 

Edited by AndyFromCB
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1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Burning 50gph to go ALMOST as fast as my 252? The useful load would be nice, but not worth (very conservatively) 35gal * $4per = $140 - $150 per hour of flight time?

No thanks... out of my budget.

Now, that's not really a fair comparison, is it? Your fly an aircraft that's about as efficient as it gets ;-)

But if you're going to burn 50gph of Avgas and still fly a cramped cabin like Dukes, you might as well get an Aerostar and go 240knots instead of 210 in the Duke.

These aircraft just make no sense anymore other than price of entry. 50gph of Avgas equals to 75gph of Jet A. And at $100 an hour per side in engine reserves, you're really not that far from PT6, as most small block PT6 run about $100 an hour to overhaul as well and have very little maintenance in between vs 25 hour oil changes on the Duke.

However, I will give it to the Duke as the best looking aircraft to ever come from B,C,M or P. It just looks fast sitting on the ground.

Edited by AndyFromCB
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3 hours ago, Zwaustin said:

401 is not pressurized thus not meeting the mission requirement and is nowhere in the same vicinity of the 421 with regard to specs, capability and refinement. Also, the original installed engine on a 401 is 1400TBO as was the 421's and the 421's flying today all have 1600TBO. 

Sorry, I didn't see pressurization as a requirement.. I just saw your destinations... ... Difference in time in the air for all those very short hops seems very small.  I didn't quite understand the need for pressurization for the short distances..    The TX trip would be a little different mission, but it sounded like that was in the possible future and not often.   You're right that the image of the 421 is a notch up... which might be important if you are trying to woo customers. ;)   

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1 hour ago, AndyFromCB said:

Now, that's not really a fair comparison, is it? Your fly an aircraft that's about as efficient as it gets ;-)

But if you're going to burn 50gph of Avgas and still fly a cramped cabin like Dukes, you might as well get an Aerostar and go 240knots instead of 210 in the Duke.

These aircraft just make no sense anymore other than price of entry. 50gph of Avgas equals to 75gph of Jet A. And at $100 an hour per side in engine reserves, you're really not that far from PT6, as most small block PT6 run about $100 an hour to overhaul as well and have very little maintenance in between vs 25 hour oil changes on the Duke.

However, I will give it to the Duke as the best looking aircraft to ever come from B,C,M or P. It just looks fast sitting on the ground.

The fact that insurance for an individual owner hasn't been mentioned once leads me to believe not many have any twin experience. Last time I requested a quote for a 310 it was 13k a year.

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11 minutes ago, peevee said:

everyone is talking about fuel burn. no one has mentioned how costly twin insurance is,

It's incidental in this type of an operation when you run an aircraft hundreds of hours a year. Compared to everything else, it's "change".

Did you have much twin time when you got that quote? Did you get the quote from a broker or AVEMCO? Because that sounds really high even for a transitioning pilot.

Also, once you move up to turbine equipment, the insurance is a fraction of piston twins. IIRC at my last company, we paying something like $25K annual for a King Air and that was multi million liability.

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6 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

It's incidental in this type of an operation when you run an aircraft hundreds of hours a year. Compared to everything else, it's "change".

Did you have much twin time when you got that quote? Did you get the quote from a broker or AVEMCO? Because that sounds really high even for a transitioning pilot.

Also, once you move up to turbine equipment, the insurance is a fraction of piston twins. IIRC at my last company, we paying something like $25K annual for a King Air and that was multi million liability.

That was AOPA. I don't have a ton, but I have enough hours that it shouldn't be 13k.

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This mission says C441 to me. If you're considering a King Air 200, you ought to be looking at Conquests as well.  The flight department across from my hangar currently operates 3 of them.  They have traded in and out of other twins, but have settled on the 441.  They regularly fly them at 35,000.  I have seen them do Las Vegas to Hagerstown MD non-stop. Good payload. Faster than a King Air 200 on less fuel. It's a tight market so resale should be easy.  Looking at the performance, It's hard to see how one would justify a light business jet.

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The twin Mooney seems to have been left out, as well...

Aka...  Twin Commander. Or Shrike. Or...?

Familiar engines...  IO540s with or without turbos,

some airframes are pressurized

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/category/9/piston-twin-aircraft?Manu=COMMANDER

 

Turbine option...!

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/category/8/turboprop-aircraft?Manu=COMMANDER

 

Does this not meet the spec?

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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23 hours ago, peevee said:

The fact that insurance for an individual owner hasn't been mentioned once leads me to believe not many have any twin experience. Last time I requested a quote for a 310 it was 13k a year.

The 414 is about $4k a year for insurance right now but that's with a pilot operator with over 1000+ hours in this particular twin with an ATP rating (and many more hours on top of that).  For me, once I get my multi and backup, as part of the group, insurance would be around $8k per year.  Separately, I'm very torn right now between the 414 and some of the turbine options.  Since the funds are available, we may skip the pistons all together.  If we go piston twin, it will be this specific 414.

 

-Seth

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22 hours ago, Shadrach said:

This mission says C441 to me. If you're considering a King Air 200, you ought to be looking at Conquests as well.  The flight department across from my hangar currently operates 3 of them.  They have traded in and out of other twins, but have settled on the 441.  They regularly fly them at 35,000.  I have seen them do Las Vegas to Hagerstown MD non-stop. Good payload. Faster than a King Air 200 on less fuel. It's a tight market so resale should be easy.  Looking at the performance, It's hard to see how one would justify a light business jet.

I agree.  Cessna stopped selling and developing the 441 in order to make sure the market would buy Citations and CJ's.  The lesser versions of those jets can't do what the 441 does.

The 441 is amazing, but it may be too much airplane for this mission.  As is the King 350.

Thus, I'm starting to concentrate on the:

 

TBM 850

PC12

Cessna 425 Conquest I (great pricing for twin turbine without the phase inspections of a King Air)

King Air B200/250

We may get an airplane for 80% of the trips and charter/wheelsup/planesense for the rest.

-Seth

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On 3/22/2017 at 9:45 AM, PaulM said:

Seth,

  Have you thought about a Duke?...   Dave's personal one is on his list:

http://www.air-mods.com/forsale/N840JB

 

At this time the only piston I'm considering is the locally updated/upgraded 414 with the turnkey operation in hand.  

But I would look fast, and Duke's look cool (YouTube video?).

-Seth

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I also posted this over at beechtalk - well worth reading some of those responses and input.

It does remind me why I purchased a Mooney but it's nice to have he group input from turbine and cabin class operators/owners in addition to those here on Mooneyspace.

Its a free sign up if you are interested in taking a look.

-Seth

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On 3/22/2017 at 4:59 PM, Shadrach said:

This mission says C441 to me. If you're considering a King Air 200, you ought to be looking at Conquests as well.  The flight department across from my hangar currently operates 3 of them.  They have traded in and out of other twins, but have settled on the 441.  They regularly fly them at 35,000.  I have seen them do Las Vegas to Hagerstown MD non-stop. Good payload. Faster than a King Air 200 on less fuel. It's a tight market so resale should be easy.  Looking at the performance, It's hard to see how one would justify a light business jet.

Well, I started researching the 441 again, and it's back in the maybe it is indeed worth it category.  Purchase prices have come down on this too since a few years ago when I looked at them for a different purpose.  Very nice airplanes for the money.  Need to learn more about them.

-Seth

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Just now, Seth said:

Well, I started researching the 441 again, and it's back in the maybe it is indeed worth it category.  Purchase prices have come down on this too since a few years ago when I looked at them for a different purpose.  Very nice airplanes for the money.  Need to learn more about them.

-Seth

I'll see if I can get some real world numbers from the flight dept across from my hangar. We've had a friendly yet strained relationship at times.

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Just now, Shadrach said:

I'll see if I can get some real world numbers from the flight dept across from my hangar. We've had a friendly yet strained relationship at times.

That would be great.  Thanks!  I need to make it back up to Hagerstown now that the restaurant is re-opened.

-Seth

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3 hours ago, Seth said:

Well, I started researching the 441 again, and it's back in the maybe it is indeed worth it category.  Purchase prices have come down on this too since a few years ago when I looked at them for a different purpose.  Very nice airplanes for the money.  Need to learn more about them.

-Seth

I see those low acquisition fees for airplanes like a pressurized twin piston, as sort of like adopting a dog from the pound where they charge you $25 dollars for the dog.  Just to make sure you are serious and to keep the riffraff from walking off with all their dogs.  Everyone knows full well that dog is going to cost hundreds and hundreds if not thousands a year as she gets old, and needs special foods, thyroid medication, knee surgery, grooming, boarding if you are away for a few days, dog sitters, doggy acupuncture (no kidding my wife once brought once of our dogs to acupuncture), ... and of course she needs a doggy aviation headset.  All that for the low low price to get started today of $25!

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It is a lot easier to determine what you want your annual operating expense (CAPEX, fuel, insurance, etc.) to be per flight hour and work backwards to a plane than it is to figure out planes forward.  

The aircraft you list have a huge differing cost structure but I don't see any kind of guidance to what the budget is.

Odds are a fractional is probably going to be a lot better deal if it is a purely financial decision.  

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