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ATP Question


KLRDMD

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I think I'm an anomaly. No, I know I'm an anomaly but that's another story :unsure:

I don't know anyone that has an ATP that hasn't at some point in their lives made a significant portion of their income from flying. No one I've asked knows anyone either.

I got my multi-engine ATP a little over a year ago, already had CFI, CFII & MEI. The most I've made flying in a year was well under 1% of my income. For the last few years I've charged "make a donation to the Flying Samaritans, Tucson Chapter for what you feel the instruction was worth" so zero dollars have come to me from flying "professionally" for quite a while.

How many people do you know that have gone up through all (well, most of) the certificates and ratings on their own dime just because it was a challenge and made them a better pilot ?

Just curious . . .

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I'm know two personally that have never flown professionally.

One owns a small FBO among other business interests. He flies his own Citation single pilot as well as a host of other aircraft he has interests in (everything from a super cub to an L-39).

The other is a finance professional that has worked for a number of different universities. I believe he moonlights for a charter operation just for fun when time permits.

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22 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

I think I'm an anomaly. No, I know I'm an anomaly but that's another story :unsure:

I don't think so!  Aviation is important to you, and you're pushing yourself to be as good as you can be at it!  It doesn't matter if you actually need to be an ATP, you wanted a challenge and went for it.  I'm seriously impressed.

There is anther thread here, "To IFR or not to IFR."  You've provided the most definitive answer to anyone's question of whether they should do Instrument training or not.

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My brother has never flown for a living professionally other than for our own business purposes, and some instructing.  He has his CFI and CFII in both fixed wing and rotorcraft, MEI, ATP, sea plane, Mitsubishi MU-2 SFAR instructor, and holds Lear 30 and 60 series type ratings.

EDIT - after talking with my brother, he said that this was not true.  He has taken flights professionally and been paid for them.  It is just not his main livelihood.

Edited by Rmag
Correction
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Generally speaking what are the time and costs of accomplishing such a fine goal?

Answer can be in estimates of AMUs and years...

From my aged memory banks... these were similar in costs and time as getting an undergraduate degree.  A pretty serious added level of schooling.

 

I think if I were flying customer's and employees around in my plane, it would be helpful for them to know of my aviation accomplishments...

Kind of like diplomas on the wall... (important to some, great for conversation... always something to look up when they get home)

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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3 hours ago, carusoam said:

Generally speaking what are the time and costs of accomplishing such a fine goal? Answer can be in estimates of AMUs and years...From my aged memory banks... these were similar in costs and time as getting an undergraduate degree.  A pretty serious added level of schooling.

It helps a bunch if you own your own airplane. I cannot imagine trying to do this on your own dime as a renter.

I earned my private in 1994 but flew little until 9/11. That pissed me off and I started flying again in 2002. A good friend counseled me that if I wanted to be serious and safe about flying I had to get my instrument rating. I did that in 2004. Then I got my commercial in 2005 or 2006.

My first instructor rating (and advanced ground instructor) was CFII in 2008. I had (and continued to have) no desire to teach primary students. Back then you could teach instruments with only a CFII. Today the interpretation is that you must have both a CFI & CFII to teach instruments. Then I bought my first twin so immediately after getting my multi-commercial instrument I trained for and received the MEI. That was probably 2009. Finally, I decided since i had CFII & MEI I may as well get my CFI, which I did in 2010 I believe. Then I saw the multi-ATP was going to change, making is almost impossible for a non-professional pilot to get one and I was close enough in prerequisites that I got it, in 2016. I also got my remote pilot certificate in 2016.

Starting with private and instrument in the bag, I'm guessing I spent 10 hours training for the commercial, 20 flight hours training for the CFII, 10 hours training for the multi-commercial instrument, 5 hours for the MEI, 5 hours for the CFI and 5 more for the ATP. That doesn't include self study ground time (hundreds of hours, maybe 1,000) nor ground school for the ratings which realistically was pretty minimal. 20 hours between them all ? The VAST majority was self study, creating lesson plans, etc. Call it 75 hours of instructor time at probably $40 per hour average over all time. Call it $3,000 for instructor time.

Most training is at reduced power settings and some were in twins, some in singles but call 55 hours of fuel another $3,000.

Add in five check rides (commercial, Multi, MEI, CFI & ATP - the initial instructor check ride is done with the FAA & therefore no cost) for another $3,000.

So, starting with a background of private-instrument call it 75 hours of flight time and $10,000 in total expenses plus another 1,000 hours studying - more or less - if you own your own airplanes for these certificates and ratings.

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A friend of mine, a local dentist, long time Mooney owner, (N1967F), 100+ Angel Flights, got his ATP along with Commercial, CFI, & CFII ratings for his own satisfaction, all in his Mooney. He flies gliders but does not have a multi engine rating. He's older than I am but likes to say that if the airlines have an opening for a 75 year old, single engine ATP, he's available.

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The single engine ATP rating is still relatively easy to get these days, especially if you own your own airplane.  Still relatively worthless, from an employment standpoint as well.  The multi ATP now requires the ATP-CTP course, before you can even take the written exam.  And it's kinda crazy....10 hours in an airline sized simulator (think 737), 6 of those full motion.  And then you can take the check ride in a Seminole.

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If you wanted to run an air taxi service, get paid for flying people around in your Mooney, or a corporate pilot gig...

What does that require, ATP?  And a lot of insurance...

Wondering out loud...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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7 hours ago, carusoam said:

If you wanted to run an air taxi service, get paid for flying people around in your Mooney, or a corporate pilot gig...

What does that require, ATP?  And a lot of insurance...

Wondering out loud...

Best regards,

-a-

Two different things. Generally speaking,

Commercial pilot certificate is all the FAA requires of a pilot for either.

But you also need a commercial operator certificate, such as a Part 135 certificate for an air taxi service. That's a whole different process and level of rules and regulations.

Basic corporate doesn't need anything special. It's  Part 91, although large aircraft and jets fall into a different Part 91 category.

What the corporation you fly for and what the insurance requirements may be is pretty much up to them so long as FAA minimum requirements are met.

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35 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

The single engine atp is just for self satisfaction. I can't think of anything it would allow you to do vs commercial. It probably looks good on a job app I suppose. 

-Robert

There are a select few companies that fly single engine that require SE ATP.  SURF AIR comes to mind, they fly PC-12 on the left coast.

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6 hours ago, kpaul said:

There are a select few companies that fly single engine that require SE ATP.  SURF AIR comes to mind, they fly PC-12 on the left coast.

Is that a company requirement or a restriction on their 135 ? It would be a fun gig  

At one point having an ATP and A&P was helpful to get noticed to fly in alaska  Now my friends up there say if you can breathe you can probably get hired  Such is th market  If I go up and stay 3 months they get $2K :)

-Robert

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10 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I got my multi ATP last July. I was just a private pilot when I started the process last June. 

The new rules will make it very expensive to repeat that now.

it was expensive enough as it was. $10k

at least I can get the r-ATP at 1k hours. it'll still be expensive.

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Goals are great!! That new ATP requirement really turned off a lot of guys. That would be a goal of mine to finish the multi-ATP.

Also never understood why one pays for a twin engine rental per hour, then spends 80% of the flight with one caged. Lol.

I've enjoyed all my training. Anything you practice towards makes you a better aviator. 

I could apply an ATP somewhat with what I do, but it would be a bigger personal goal rather than a requirement.

Go for it!

-Matt

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10 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Is that a company requirement or a restriction on their 135 ? It would be a fun gig  

I am pretty sure it is a company requirement.  I did my ME-ATP out of Oakland and my DPE was the one that told me that Surf required their pilots to possess a SE-ATP.  That would be a sweet job, except there is no way that their salary could cover the cost of living in Cali.  Good job for a guy trying to get hours or as a retirement job.

In 3 years and 5 months, I will be looking for a retirement flying job that has me home every night. 

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