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ATC privatization


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Guest Mike261
16 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Mike, it's sad to see someone from the great "Live Free or Die" state just give up in the face of a little fake news. You're not really a New Hampshire guy are you? I'm guessing you work down I93 in the People's Republic? :unsure:

I'm a 74 year old Vermonter (from when Vermont was the only state FDR did not carry, not the Sanders, Leahy carpetbagger version) and I think I'm made of sterner stuff.

New Hampshire is no longer the great live free or die state. It has been blue for the last 4 elections, and the influx of massachusetts people has made NH just a suburb of mass. The latest imports want services we never had up here, ban things we used to be able to do here and so on.

I don't work in mass per se, i do some business in mass but I own a business in NH and the amount of regulation and taxation is ridiculous...I would never start a business today, it was a lot easier when i started in the early 90's. I have been hardened and jaded by government and taxes.

the regulation and government intrusion into my business is staggering. You can not possibly satisfy all the rules and regulations foisted upon you...its a full time job.

this latest money grab by the government (user fees) is just another hand reaching in my pocket. Its hardly fake news...this has legs now.

I was made of sterner stuff...like i said after so many years you just sigh and throw your hands up.

Mike

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I wrote an email to a close family member about the ATC plan and I made a few points, 1) that we will be hit with user fees in addition to the gas tax and 2) that user fees will likely make learning to fly very expensive to the point where airlines may find themselves with a pilot shortage eight to ten years on. Here is his reply, am I being too alarmist or is he too naive?

 

"Your objection to everything is these gloom and doom projections that never come to pass or are resolved to the satisfaction of all stakeholders. There is no need for user fees as the fuel taxes will be more than sufficient to fund a private organization that will run the system for a lot less money than the government. Student pilots can easily register with their schools to make sure that they are exempt from any undue costs. Happens all the time..

The FAA has had decades and billions of dollars to improve the ATC of the country and they have missed targets for years with no consequences. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and then expect different results. Why not consider a new approach?"

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3 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I wrote an email to a close family member about the ATC plan and I made a few points, 1) that we will be hit with user fees in addition to the gas tax and 2) that user fees will likely make learning to fly very expensive to the point where airlines may find themselves with a pilot shortage eight to ten years on. Here is his reply, am I being too alarmist or is he too naive?

 

"Your objection to everything is these gloom and doom projections that never come to pass or are resolved to the satisfaction of all stakeholders. There is no need for user fees as the fuel taxes will be more than sufficient to fund a private organization that will run the system for a lot less money than the government. Student pilots can easily register with their schools to make sure that they are exempt from any undue costs. Happens all the time..

The FAA has had decades and billions of dollars to improve the ATC of the country and they have missed targets for years with no consequences. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and then expect different results. Why not consider a new approach?"

I think your father is right.

 

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Nothing has changed. Humans, in our current genetic state, have not changed in 200 million years. Why is everyone surprised by anything?

Jeez, go fly for gods sake and forget about it.

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11 minutes ago, HRM said:

Nothing has changed. Humans, in our current genetic state, have not changed in 200 million years. Why is everyone surprised by anything?

Jeez, go fly for gods sake and forget about it.

Humans, 200 million years, unchanged? You teach engineering not anthropology, right, Harley?:rolleyes:

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33 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

I think your father is right.

 

The fuel tax isn't enough to cover the expenses now, why should it in the future?

There's a whole national defense side to this that's being ignored also.

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44 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

 

The FAA has had decades and billions of dollars to improve the ATC of the country and they have missed targets for years with no consequences. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and then expect different results. Why not consider a new approach?"

Which has little to do with the FAA and a lot to do with funding instability and contractors 

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The fuel tax isn't enough to cover the expenses now, why should it in the future?
There's a whole national defense side to this that's being ignored also.


Fuel tax is an easy way to fund atc. Hits users proportional to their size, which is as fair as anything, and doesn't create an expensive layer of bureaucracy on both the government and user sides. I have no idea why anyone thinks user fees is a good idea when we have the fuel tax mechanism.


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I think I know where this is going...

1) ATC is going to get more expensive... through inflation, at least.

2) AOPA is going to start the good fight...

3) my mail box is going to get stuffed with all kinds of alerts to send money to AOPA to fight the good fight...

4) Death by 1MM paper cuts...

 

5) Does anyone use the snail mail anymore to send a letter?

6) The only thing I get in the snail mail is bills and junk mail. I prefer neither...:)

7) It is great to have a few ATC guys around MS to keep the details of the other side coming.

Best regards,

-a-

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18 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

You have to remember where the "Great" bit came from.  Google will tell you.  

However that little country had the largest empire the world has ever seen, invented more things that are in day to day use around the world than anything any other country has ever done. Stood up to tyranny ALL ALONE, and won losing its empire in the process (other countries joined late in the day).    Rebuilt itself from Bankruptcy to become the 5th largest economy in the world, even while being totally ignored by the Marshall Plan which rebuilt Europe not the U.K.    So yep I am a bit proud of my country and its past.  

Oh and there is only one T in Britain.  

End of history lesson. 

:):)  

 

You should feel proud of your country. There are many here in the Colonies who have nothing but great affection for our traditional allies and that will not change no matter who occupies the Oval Office.

 

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Simple question, does the fuel tax go to FAA expenditures directly or does it just get sucked into the general fund and then doled  out in the annual budget.  


It shouldn't matter really. It's all federal budget. Our esteemed lawmakers shouldn't tax us more than the services cost. But in reality they do what they can get away with. Like sucking the social security trust fund dry...


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On 6/5/2017 at 5:26 PM, gsengle said:

 


Alas, I don't think socialism is what gave us all the great airports and schools and businesses and technology ;)


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I wish we could get away from labeling people and their ideas with terms like "Socialism". I think it does us all more harm then good and tends to create division instead of unity. In the last election cycle I couldn't get over how many people would not even consider supporting Senator Sanders because "He's a Socialist!" These were comments that I heard directly from people who, by and large, enjoyed their monthly Social Security checks and benefitted greatly from their Medicare benefits. Both of these programs are textbook examples of Socialist programs. We sure don't want anything like that now, do we?

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Well we certainly need govt for many things but in fact if I could have kept all the money I was required to pay into social security I could have retired years ago and had much more than the pittance that will be payed back to me if I even live long enough to receive my first check.  And there would have been plenty extra to pay for my own medical insurance. 

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15 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

Dear Sir
....25cm last time I measured.  
Andrew

 

10 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

My point all along was how short some of the distances are over there.

And I may be hitting you up for a ride Andrew when I'm in London next Spring so I can verify it myself.

Am I the only one who misread this?

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As a VFR only pilot I am not very worried about it unless they truly start imposing landing fees.  I normally avoid the big airports because I prefer the friendliness of the smaller airports.  I use flight following on long flights but with ADSB-In and my ZAON I usually get a warning about aircraft long before flight following warns me. 

I wonder what impact it will have on the big shows like AirVenture and Sun-N-Fun if less planes attend due to the costs involved...

 

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11 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Humans, 200 million years, unchanged?

I could be off by an order of magnitude or so. No matter, point remains the same.

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12 hours ago, peevee said:

Which has little to do with the FAA and a lot to do with funding instability and contractors 

Could you expound on this?  I have a few close connections with ATC on the management side and neither of them seem agree with your sentiment. 

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For those that have the time and curiosity, this is and interesting read about air traffic privatisation:

http://www.wctrs-society.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/abstracts/berkeley/G3/654/ATM in Canada Britain and US.doc

edit:  just wanted to add that the Delta study provides more heat and less light into the discussion.  They talk of the Ontario fuel tax as being an example of increasing cost despite privatisation.  The Ontario fuel tax is a provincial level tax grab from wealthy aircraft owners and has zero to do with ATC and just drops into the provincial coffers.  No different than state, local, municipal or airport fuel fees or levies. 

I lose confidence in the findings of any study (like Deltas) that uses misleading information to bolster their argument.

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For those opposed to Privatization of ATC, there is a long road ahead before it becomes effective. Right now, it is just an Executive Order. Write your Senators, as I did on the day of the announcement, and voice your concerns. This still has to be approved by the house and senate before it becomes effective.

 

**Edit**

 

I propose that you approach the discussion from a safety standpoint as opposed to grumbling about potential costs. Also, this order would effectively privatize a quasi-law-enforcement branch of our government. Remember, the FAA relies upon reports from air traffic control for enforcement purposes. This is a concern unofficially shared by the FAA's legal division.

 

 

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For those opposed to Privatization of ATC, there is a long road ahead before it becomes effective. Right now, it is just an Executive Order. Write your Senators, as I did on the day of the announcement, and voice your concerns. This still has to be approved by the house and senate before it becomes effective.
 
**Edit**
 
I propose that you approach the discussion from a safety standpoint as opposed to grumbling about potential costs. Also, this order would effectively privatize a quasi-law-enforcement branch of our government. Remember, the FAA relies upon reports from air traffic control for enforcement purposes. This is a concern unofficially shared by the FAA's legal division.
 
 
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It wasn't even an exec order. He made all those people stand around like at a bill signing ceremony to sign, get this, a memo.

(Yeah I know MSNBC isn't a fan of Trump, but here is one source and commentary about having a memo signing ceremony, so don't start with the fake news nonsense, what was fake was the ceremony)

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/trump-launches-infrastructure-initiative-fake-signing-ceremony


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