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ATC privatization


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http://www.geekwire.com/2017/trump-aviation-executives-faa-infrastructure/

 

privatization sounds like a slippery slope, but at least it's good to see there is some focus also on the equipment certification process as being a big problem.  (STC's etc.. )  .. hopefully, if user fees do come up, some regulations will be changed to make avionics and instruments cheaper...    

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Will this mean our "user fees" will be cheaper than Canada's? It doesn't seem that bad for the Canadians. We have far more active GA aircraft but on the other hand we have a far more complex system. Fees solely from Federal fuel taxes? That plus a quarterly use invoice?

It is quite obvious that GA today is not what it was 40 years ago. Airports seem to be closing down or are all but abandoned. Maybe compare the GA system to public libraries. With the progression of the Internet and digital media, far less people use public libraries than they did 20 years ago. Funding for libraries are at jeopardy and they are usually the first for communities to slash from their budgets. Why should my tax money pay to heat, air condition, and staff a book warehouse that nobody visits?  I think that with a simple sales pitch the public will be easily swayed to cut funding to the ATC system for GA as our lobby membership is dwindling. Same with state funding for airport projects - again, the library comparison. Why should my tax money continue to spend a fortune to re-pave crumbled runways at an airport that facilitates five aircraft (owned by guys in their 70's-80's) and who fly them twice a year? I live in Michigan where our governour Rick Snyder is going to extreme lengths to recover taxes and fees owed to the state. I sincerely think he is doing a great job in regards to solvency (he is a CPA...) but I was shocked when I got a bill for $1700 in back taxes due on my old Cessna...

We might be going back to tail draggers and farm fields soon. At least when I finally build my Kitfox or Rans I'll have some fancy radios to throw in them :lol:

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30 minutes ago, Sven said:

Since there are laws against double taxation I'm safe to assume the aviation fuel tax would disappear if user fees are enacted. Right? Right?

Hope you have O2 in you plane while you are holding your breath. :ph34r:

 

I think if they go privatization fuel tax is the way to go IMHO.  That way no matter what you fly you contribute to the system you are flying in regardless if you cal ATC or not.  If you fly on your farm and use auto gas you still paying some type of road use tax anyway so it all balances out unless you are flying on home grown ethanol or diesel from used cooking oil.

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I grew up on a farm and we maintained a stock of fuel for farm equipment (Diesel and gasoline) that we didn't pay the road taxes on.  

The diesel at least had a different color so they could check if you used it in vehicles that were on the road, although I never saw or heard of anyone getting checked.

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I'm not a fan of the "Privatization makes everything better" argument. I'm suspicious that there's someone out there waiting to step in and make big bucks with some executive slots. Some things do seem to get hung up needlessly at the FAA (I'm thinking of GAMI G100 UL). 

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Private NY center:  "Mooney 12345, would you like to SuperSize your IFR clearance today?  Only $9.95 extra for pireps, our exclusive hold avoidance guarantee, and full traffic separation services?"  

Mooney 12345: "Negative, thanks."

Center:. Turn left fly heading 090, expect further clearance Tuesday."

Edited by Jerry 5TJ
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Does any one know how much revenue is collected from the current fuel tax and how that compares with the cost of our govt. running aviation.  I would imagine all the money we pay into fuel tax is just dumped into the general fund and then they can claim there is no incomming revenue from our fuel purchases and that funding for ATC and other FAA has to be paid from the general budget allowing the political crats the ability to claim we arent paying our fair share.

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There is no law against double taxation, it does and is happening. Ex. Take wages from your C corporation then a distribution from the same co., one example of many, were not that lucky.

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Be warned. There is an old Arab proverb that says: If you let a camel enter his head inside the tent, the whole body will follow. Before we had privatization of ATC in Canada, we had axise tax on aircraft fuel. When they started to charge for ATC, the tax remained!

Yves

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3 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I have kind of always wondered why they don't send you a speeding ticket for the calculated time elapsed between toll booths... Along with charging you the toll. 

Back in the dark ages, the story was that the Oklahoma turnpike (Tulsa to Ok City) did that, presumably by giving you a ticket when you handed them your "ticket" at the end of the route. I never knew of it happening to anyone, but the hot-shots in the know allegedly threw away their tickets and claimed they lost them when exiting.

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Starting in the 80s, The New Jersey speedway/turnpike would print date and time stamps on the ticket when you got it. They clearly knew how fast I was traveling with their low tech method that included accel decel time. A simple method of defeating the system was hand them a ticket from the last time you got on. Use today's ticket tomorrow....

Now, it is a completely automated process with RFID to monitor speed and location and cameras that can read your mandatory front license plate. Face recognition is just assumed. As is lidar... don't forget the road based weight sensors too.

The only automated speeding ticket I got was in Europe.  I was in a rush, they turn off the lights at the Eiffel Tower around 2am.  You get a bright flash of light to let you know what just happened... it probably doubled as an eye test for speeders... 

The next time you enter the country, be prepared to pay for that ticket.  The guys at the customs booth have looked up your record automatically! You get to stand there while selecting the best way to pay for that. Fortunately they take credit cards.

Some speed limits are set by the auto's control capabilities matched with the roads design.  Radial tires, disk brakes, light weight cars... concrete Jersey barriers...

Others were set by fuel economy, 55mph...

Some discussions evolve about the safety aspects... three point seat belts, multiple airbags, roll bars, high doors with steel bars in them...

The legal system must have an interesting way of protecting us from the bureaucrats...

Fly on...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
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In 2012 we got to 6 pages of replies in this topic:

But now, nobody seems to care.  Instead, we've already drifted to talking about speeding tickets on turnpikes.

Well, I care.  I am against user fees and unnecessary taxes wherever they are, regardless of who happens to be in office.  I joined AOPA in 1992 because of the threat of user fees just as I was finishing my Instrument rating and buying my first airplane.  With each new administration came new threats of user fees.

So what's the deal?  Are we, as a group, generally for or against user fees?

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5 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

In 2012 we got to 6 pages of replies in this topic:

But now, nobody seems to care.  Instead, we've already drifted to talking about speeding tickets on turnpikes.

Well, I care.  I am against user fees and unnecessary taxes wherever they are, regardless of who happens to be in office.  I joined AOPA in 1992 because of the threat of user fees just as I was finishing my Instrument rating and buying my first airplane.  With each new administration came new threats of user fees.

So what's the deal?  Are we, as a group, generally for or against user fees?

Very interesting to read through the replies from that time, including my own (I said it wasn't going to happen in the foreseeable future). A lot of people got their panties in a bunch over it.

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Just had that conversation with my wife this morning while driving to Green Bay for granddaughters birthday party.  User fees will pave the fast road to lower safety.  They would likely be tied to filing IFR Flight Plans so there would be a lot more marginal VFR flights done that would normally have been IFR.  

This battle comes up every 4 years and we've been successful fending it off.  Seems at some point we will lose the fight.  What's really puzzling is this appears (privatization) to have support from the Controller's Union (or whatever their organization is called)?

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I for one am not without interest at all.  For me at least, there is two things going on.  Its hard to get up in arms and become agitated like clock work every year, every four years, so there is a bit of weariness there, and a feeling like as Yooper said, that with the constant threat, eventually we will loose.  But in dual, there is so many other things happening in the news, and please not to open up a political fight, I am just wearing of the entire thing, and this is just one of many many issues that are currently under threat, and I am wearing to discuss these things online as I have learned over time, that discussing online is generally not such a productive or satisfying thing as compared to discussing with folks in person.

But I do remained committed to my original interest on this topic, that user fees would be damaging, and unnecessary toward their intended goal, and have other unintended consequences, and a problem that once let out of the box, we will never be able to put back in.

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we are all concerned, but if user fees are collected though fuel tax then everyone using the system will share the cost (at an appropriate level). I don't think it will be less safe, or less efficient. VFR pilots are using the airspace and are being watched, so they need to share in the expense. Looking at almost every government agency I'm having a hard time seeing anything that looks like efficiency. 

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