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New (lady) member - Considering an M20G


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Welcome.  I appreciate your comment of enjoying excellent engineering.  I almost went to engineering several times in my life (but ended up a symphonic clarinetist (Oregon Symphony X 8 years and others) subsequently turned physician.  

The F/G airframe is great.  The manual Johnson Bar is a plus.  You have mountains in the Pacific Northwest (where I learned to fly) and you will want a turbo after owning the airplane for sometime.  This is particularly true of the G model as it is underpowered compared to the F/E.  

My F  is turbonormalized and I would not have it any other way.   

John Breda

 

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Fuel system related .... but slightly off the wall comment ... Regarding the wing fuel sumps drains make sure that  they have been updated to a replaceable  type.  I had a mix match of  two  different types  fuel sumps drains  in  each wing fuel tank (long story).

 The 1967 M20C original flush mounted fuel sump  drain were not  replaceable delivered from the factory.  LASAR sells a fuel sumps drain replacement kit  I can't remember if It was a Service Bulletin or Service Instruction , but they had you relocate  the fuel sumps drain in the wing per a SB/SI. Apparently the 1967 M20C  models from the factory the fuel tanks sump was not  installed  at the lowest part of the fuel tank. This has been one of the  toughest repairs / modification on  my  Mooney to date (in my humble option) for  the  19 years  of owning it. The IA did all the hard work of drilling holes for the special  nut plates  ,riveting  and sealing the tank after the mod of the fuel sumps. The tough part  was dealing with tank sealant  which works great when it is doing it's job.  But when it came to removing the a small portion tank sealant to relocate the fuel sump drain  near the lap joints in the wing was a major pain. You do not want to disturb the surrounding  tank sealant and you do not want to mar the wing skin  which could cause a leak or stress concentration and you were doing this through a fuel tank  inspection panel on the top of the wing. I suspect that most Mooney's out in the field have probably this mod done  already.

We have had to replace the electric  fuel boost once in almost 20 years of ownership not too bad to replace (though I didn't do it) but looks straight  forward. The fuel pump on the Engine was replace at engine overhaul.  Consider a  Hartzell Scimitar propeller if it is option. I have been told that they are cheaper than the reoccurring Hub inspection and   B hub Hartzell's  at least when I upgraded several years back that was the case.

James '67C RNT

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11 hours ago, Vance Harral said:

I'm not sure I'd agree with the sentiment gear disks aren't terribly expensive.  Present-day pricing is about $115 each, and you need 4 on each main and 3 on the nose.  That's a $1265 hit if you do them all, and that doesn't include labor.  We just re-did the main gear pucks on our airplane, and the job actually cost more than our last fuel tank patch, which was more than 5 years ago.  I've also noticed the cost of the disks seems to rise at about double the inflation rate.  This is the second round of disks for us.  The first round was about 10 years ago and the disks were only about $85 apiece back then.  The price seems to go up about $5/disk every year.

I guess it's relative.

@ ~$1500 for 10 years that's $150/year. that's far less than Garmin subscriptions. Probably less per year of service than the muffler. Or the alternator. Or the battery. Maybe more than tires. More than spark plugs but less than oil changes. Comparable to CamGuard and Blackstone. Far less than a tie down to say nothing of a hangar.

And I've never heard that disks suffer infant mortality.  

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I'm not sure I would want a partner in airplane ownership.  I want to know what condition my plane is in, and am wiling to take the effort and money to keep it in the best, most reliable condition it can be in.  This is first and foremost a safety issue.  I can seen discussions with a partner about do we do this maintenance this year or wait till next.  You could solve such an issue yourself just by just paying for it work yourself, but then why have a partner.  If you do not fly enough, a partner could help exercise the plane however.  

You would not regret and E or F.  I am partial to the F given its added length, and retention of the "simple" aspects of the airframe, J bar and hydraulic flaps.  Mine is otherwise not a F at all, so I do have the advantages of a turbonormalized plane with modern avionics.  

I doubt you will find a plane with a list of acoutrements you stated already installed.  Decide what you are willing to install your self or what you are willing to do without.  

Mods are expensive, some more than others.  If you do mods, concentrate of the ones that add performance, ie... Turbonormalization, long range tanks, J model cowling, 201 windshield.   Avionics; once you have modern stuff, they become need to have items.  Before you have them and know better, they can be considered nice to have items.

John Breda

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2 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

I'm not sure I would want a partner in airplane ownership.  I want to know what condition my plane is in, and am wiling to take the effort and money to keep it in the best, most reliable condition it can be in.  This is first and foremost a safety issue.  I can seen discussions with a partner about do we do this maintenance this year or wait till next.  You could solve such an issue yourself just by just paying for it work yourself, but then why have a partner.  If you do not fly enough, a partner could help exercise the plane however.

...

John Breda

Anything can be worked out with a written partner agreement.  As long as the terms are agreeable to all parties it can be set up many ways.  For example:

1.  One partner with a controlling interest, say 70/30 in equity with the controlling partner making decisions.  Or, if equity is not needed, something like a lease.  Small refundable initial payment plus fixed monthly payments plus an hourly charge to use.  Restrictions on getting out of or into the partnership.

2.  Specifying that all repairs must be done as soon as practical.  The controlling partner takes input from the other concerning upgrades, but makes the ultimate decision.

3.  Written operating procedures on whatever you feel is important.  And if you have an engine monitor, you can download the data to ensure neither partner is abusing the engine.

4.  Specified penalties for failure to follow the rules.  That could be financial or even expulsion and forfeiture of the refundable payment.

I have three partners and we have no problems.  We all agree when it comes to maintenance.  We sometimes disagree when it comes to upgrades but we use majority rule.  So far we've added the GTX345 and will be installing Cies floats.  We even allow upgrades when some don't want to pay for it.  As long as the majority does not object to the upgrade, those that want the upgrade can pay for it themselves.  In exchange, they get a larger equity stake in the plane.  The amount of increase is based on the cost of the upgrade.

Bob

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Welcome Sophie. Well after 6 pages of replies I certainly hope you're convinced that you NEED a Mooney which whatever model you get, I bet you'll be happy with. Funny, flying around with the RFDS in Australia inspired me to take flight lessons so i could go back there one day and fly around the outback. Haven't done that yet but still on my bucket list! ok back to the helpful suggestions from everyone please continue.

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On 3/14/2017 at 0:04 AM, Sophie said:

1. Must have been a loved aircraft and not have any deferred maintenance.

 

Oh boy.  Realize that you're stating what everyone WANTS to get in their airplane, but almost no one ever gets, unless you happen to know the owner and they die and you can buy it. 

If you really insist on absolutely everything in your list, particularly looking for an airplane "with no deferred maintenance", you will be looking for many years, and you probably won't find it.  Like everything else, you pick your battles.  Which I guess is the point of your posts; what things to REALLY insist on. 

You obviously know about propeller and engine, and others in this thread have talked about the gear pucks.  (The pucks have a date code from manufacture.  The pucks are usually positioned so that the date code faces front.  You can casually glance at the gear and read the code, then at some later time ask the seller how old the pucks are.  You can find out how honest/knowledgeable they are by whether the answer matches the date code.)

Beyond those, the biggest thing is definitely to ask about the fuel tanks.  If they're not bladders, then find out when they were last completely stripped and resealed, and by whom.  If they don't know or you can't find out, bargain for purchase price assuming that you'll need to do an $8-9,000 strip and reseal.  At least one of the folks who do the reseal publish a guide that you can use the take a mirror and a flashlight and look inside the tanks and tell by color or condition whether the sealant is original and what condition it's in. 

(By the way, there's a recurring AD for making sure sealant hasn't closed up some of the vents in the baffles in the tanks.  Make SURE that inspection is part of your prebuy, and have the mechanic SHOW you that the holes are open.)

J-bars are great; I love mine.  You don't need a super-strong arm if you have good speed control; it's reasonably easy to retract the gear at 85 mph; much more difficult much above that.

Five years ago I would have said buy the airplane you want that has the avionics you want.  I presume most of the Mooney fleet doesn't have ADS-B out, so I'd soften that stance a bit, and perhaps assume that you're going to have ONE avionics install early in your ownership, but when you're shopping for planes, know what you want to have so that you can mentally add the cost of everything you want that isn't there. 

(By the by--Brittain is shopping autopilots, but very slowly, and they have a two-year waiting list.  I don't know how much of the Mooney fleet has autopilots in them; I wasn't so worried about that when I bought my plane, but now I'm working on getting one installed.  If I were buying again, I'd consider an altitude hold MUCH more valuable than horizontal steering.  The PC wing-leveler system gets me pretty far in IFR; when flying IFR I direct much more attention to altitude holding than course holding. 

One other thing to be SUPER careful about checking in your pre-buy is airframe corrosion.  Have the (Mooney-specialist) inspector look at all the corrosion points in the wings, and do the -208 (don't remember the exact name) inspection of the fuselage tubing for corrosion. 

It's guaranteed that you'll miss something.  Another thing to look at as far as biasing yourself toward well-taken airplanes is to look at the log books and see how the mechanics treated it (thorough entries vs. very sparse entries, very complete AD listings vs. not).  It's also very instructive to just look at the wiring bundling behind the panel.  Ring terminals that were just cut off rather than removed is a sign that someone did some sloppy avionics work. 

It will be fun to find out what you eventually buy.  Good luck!

Craig Steffen

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Hi,

Wanted to provide everyone who gave such great advice a quick update. I've seen some sad Mooney's, had some close calls on some great planes and missed out. Tomorrow I'm hopeful that she'll be the one I fly home. Yes the avionics are a bit on the older side and the panel could use a small amount of configuration, but she's been the pride and joy of an owner and seems to be very well maintained and the price allows me to get into an M20F at a decent price point and do some flying before I go for my instrument rating.

During the negotiation, preparing for the pre buy and the final inspection I've had the benefit of this groups help and I just wanted to say thanks. If this isn't the plane I'll keep looking until I find the right one but I know all of the things to look for and the cost to resolve certain issues. 

I'll update the group on the outcome.

 

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10 hours ago, Sophie said:

Hi,

Wanted to provide everyone who gave such great advice a quick update. I've seen some sad Mooney's, had some close calls on some great planes and missed out. Tomorrow I'm hopeful that she'll be the one I fly home. Yes the avionics are a bit on the older side and the panel could use a small amount of configuration, but she's been the pride and joy of an owner and seems to be very well maintained and the price allows me to get into an M20F at a decent price point and do some flying before I go for my instrument rating.

During the negotiation, preparing for the pre buy and the final inspection I've had the benefit of this groups help and I just wanted to say thanks. If this isn't the plane I'll keep looking until I find the right one but I know all of the things to look for and the cost to resolve certain issues. 

I'll update the group on the outcome.

 

JUmping to page 6 checking back in this is what I wanted to know.   Good luck.

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