New (lady) member - Considering an M20G

[Browncbr1]

I recommend you identify the exact model, year, and basic features you want, then search for one that is corrosion free.   Trying to decide between two different models during the purchasing process is too difficult.   For example, before I started the serious stage of the buying process, I narrowed down to 1967 F with J bar.  This helped me tremendously when searching and deciding to buy.   

[Yetti]

Having had some recent experiences with the electric gear actuator during annual.  I found the unit to be very well made and a fine piece of engineering and machining.  Nothing to shy away from.

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

I recommend you identify the exact model, year, and basic features you want, then search for one that is corrosion free.   Trying to decide between two different models during the purchasing process is too difficult.   For example, before I started the serious stage of the buying process, I narrowed down to 1967 F with J bar.  This helped me tremendously when searching and deciding to buy.   

I don't doubt this worked for you, but I don't agree it helps most with the buying process.  Narrowing the search to a single model and year will needlessly reduce the choices. The vintage Mooney market is way too small already.  I don't see the specific model/year as being nearly as important as condition, maintenance history, and panel equipment.

Sorry to say, but I've gotta say I believe this is actually terrible advice.

[Bob - S50]

Sophie,

With regards to an external GPS annunciator.  This assumes we wanted to use it for IFR flights.  But then again, why would you need LPV capability if you only fly VFR?  We felt that we were required to put one in for our GTN650 mounted in the center stack of our J model.  I think most people ignore the requirement, and to be honest I never use it, but I believe to be legal we needed it.  There are actually a couple tests and measurements that need to be made.

Navigation Source is the only one that applied to us.  Since our ADI and HSI are offset to the left of our yoke, we chose the offered option of measuring from the middle of the yoke.  It had to be within 10.85" of the left edge of the GTN.  It wasn't.  It was just over 11" so we were less than an inch from not needing a source indication.

GPS Navigation.  That's the one that indicates Enroute, Terminal, or Approach.  That could be 14.4" away from the yoke.  Ours was well under that so we didn't need that annunciation.

TAWS annunciation (which we don't have).  That could be even further away.

All this can be found in section 2.10 of the installation manual.

[Browncbr1]

2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I don't doubt this worked for you, but I don't agree it helps most with the buying process.  Narrowing the search to a single model and year will needlessly reduce the choices. The vintage Mooney market is way too small already.  I don't see the specific model/year as being nearly as important as condition, maintenance history, and panel equipment.

Sorry to say, but I've gotta say I believe this is actually terrible advice.

I can't think of anything more terrible than buying a plane that you later realize isn't what you really wanted.  

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

I can't think of anything more terrible than buying a plane that you later realize isn't what you really wanted.  

True, but are you gonna say that the difference between a 1964 C and a 1967 C is enough to give you buyer remorse just over the model year?  That's what's ridiculous. 

What is much more likely is that you buy an F with a terrible panel instead of a C with a decent panel. An airplane should be chosen based on condition and equipment which translates directly to value. The differences between an early model C all the way to a late model F or J is not that significant. And not nearly as significant as the difference between two planes, one with poorly repaired damage, and one well maintained.

[Sophie]

All of the feedback has been wonderful and especially since it's from the heart and helps anyone consider their strategy when thinking about the best plane for themselves ..  thank-you. The number of really loved and well maintained Mooney's is pretty thin, in fact I'd prefer to buy through word of mouth but I'd also like to get started with my IFR training this year :-). All of the guidance so far is really helping me to eliminate the wild goose chases and ask all of the right questions. I've also found that the brokers tend to add a challenging communication layer on the truth, so being properly informed is key to breaking through the scattered BS.

I'm now focused on looking for a well maintained Mooney, and in addition looking for one with limited AD's can help to make the aircraft more economical with respect to the annuals and regular (100/150/500) hour inspections. I gather the JBar removes a big one because it removes the need to inspect the duke motor/drive. In addition the prop seems to be another. Are there any other costly AD's that you think I should be looking out for ?

 

[Browncbr1]

46 minutes ago, Sophie said:

All of the feedback has been wonderful and especially since it's from the heart and helps anyone consider their strategy when thinking about the best plane for themselves ..  thank-you. The number of really loved and well maintained Mooney's is pretty thin, in fact I'd prefer to buy through word of mouth but I'd also like to get started with my IFR training this year :-). All of the guidance so far is really helping me to eliminate the wild goose chases and ask all of the right questions. I've also found that the brokers tend to add a challenging communication layer on the truth, so being properly informed is key to breaking through the scattered BS.

I'm now focused on looking for a well maintained Mooney, and in addition looking for one with limited AD's can help to make the aircraft more economical with respect to the annuals and regular (100/150/500) hour inspections. I gather the JBar removes a big one because it removes the need to inspect the duke motor/drive. In addition the prop seems to be another. Are there any other costly AD's that you think I should be looking out for ?

 

The jbar is not only cheaper and more reliable, but models that have the jbar come with hydraulic flaps, which I prefer to electric.   You can feel them and know where they are from pump lever feedback..  I like that they are completely independent of the electrical system.  I have a friend who has had to replace several flap relays and other electrical problems for the flaps and gear.  If you get electric gear, get the slow gear box version..  The Dukes has the fast gear box and has more problems..

The reason why I mentioned pin pointing the year (actually year range) is because manual gear was not offered after 1967.  There is a very big difference between a 67 F and say, 71 F as the company changed ownership and marketing lost their minds on the tail design, among other construction changes.  The 67 also has washout at the wing tips....  not a big deal, but something to be aware of.  

Good luck in your search and try to be sure about what you are going to be married to!  

 

 

Oh yea, check not only ADs, but also SBs.  Like the rear spar SB

[cnoe]

28 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

The jbar is not only cheaper and more reliable

I must respectfully disagree with this assessment. Both the manual and electric systems are quite reliable and require minimal maintenance.

31 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

models that have the jbar come with hydraulic flaps, which I prefer to electric

I had significant problems with the hydraulic flaps on the M20E I partnered in and even the country's premier MSC could not properly repair the flap pump. I've had zero problems in 3 1/2 years of J ownership (electric flaps).

I'm just saying don't base your purchase decision on which gear/flaps the plane has. Get the plane with the best bang for the buck (i.e. right avionics, right engine).

Just my $0.02.

[Hank]

The big differences between C and F are the tens:  the F has 10" more interior room (half back seat leg room, half baggage compartment), runs 10 knots faster (at the cost of a couple gph) and the engine costs almost $10K more to overhaul (cylinders cost extra, plus all of the fuel injection plumbing, pump, etc). 

It all boils down to how much gear you want to travel with, how often you will put four adults in the plane for longer than an hour or so each way, and how much you value back seat comfort. If you want fuel injection and a short body, look at Es. I have come to really enjoy my C, and don't miss having fuel injection, tough hot starts, and worries about clogged injectors, cracked spiders or balancing injectors. 

[DXB]

47 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Not to be sexist, Sophie, but make sure you have the physical strength necessary to operate a J bar. It is not at all difficult but my mother is a petit lady and couldn't manage it while also flying the plane. 

Just to offer one more perspective on the J bar - I'm a guy but might be considered your proverbial 90lb weakling.  The J bar did offer some drama for me during transition training. But working it is mostly about technique - being at the correct airspeed, swinging it smoothly to let the pendulum action of the gear do ,most of the work, and the right little wrist move at the end to get it into the socket and make sure it's locked.  If I were a burly fella, I might have been able to brute force it at first until the right motor memory took hold.  But now it's second nature and a complete non-event.  I bet bluehighwayflyer's mom would have figured it out too had she persisted .   Lacking an actuator motor, it does have a few less components to maintain or to fail, so there may be a modest rational basis to want one.   But now I just love the J bar irrationally, just like the rest of my plane.

[KLRDMD]

5 hours ago, Sophie said:

I'm now focused on looking for a well maintained Mooney, and in addition looking for one with limited AD's can help to make the aircraft more economical with respect to the annuals and regular (100/150/500) hour inspections. I gather the JBar removes a big one because it removes the need to inspect the duke motor/drive. In addition the prop seems to be another. Are there any other costly AD's that you think I should be looking out for ?

A good friend of mine, long time Mooney owner and A&P/IA has his '65E for sale. He finished building his RV10. I know this airplane personally, have flown it and can say without any fear of contradiction that it is absolutely well maintained. This one has the prop hub that does not have the AD, has good airframe and engine times, a reasonable if not absolutely up to date panel, recently resealed tanks, shoulder harnesses, engine monitor - pretty much all the basics are covered for it to not require putting a bunch of money into. I have no financial interest in the sale of this airplane (as a matter of fact I told him it is overpriced).

http://www.klrdmd.com/N5918Q.html

[Marauder]

Not to be sexist, Sophie, but make sure you have the physical strength necessary to operate a J bar. It is not at all difficult but my mother is a petit lady and couldn't manage it while also flying the plane. All of these variations have their pros and cons and you will find opinions all over the map. Condition is the most important thing, though, when buying a 50 year old plane. Also try to find one that is equipped as closely to your aspirations as is possible, because avionics are very expensive to install later. But this is very much a secondary consideration to condition. Good luck. 

Not a problem for Sophie. She's been working out anticipating buying a Mooney with manual gear.




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[Hank]

48 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

A good friend of mine, long time Mooney owner and A&P/IA has his '65E for sale. He finished building his RV10. I know this airplane personally, have flown it and can say without any fear of contradiction that it is absolutely well maintained. This one has the prop hub that does not have the AD, has good airframe and engine times, a reasonable if not absolutely up to date panel, recently resealed tanks, shoulder harnesses, engine monitor - pretty much all the basics are covered for it to not require putting a bunch of money into. I have no financial interest in the sale of this airplane (as a matter of fact I told him it is overpriced).

http://www.klrdmd.com/N5918Q.html

Sounds like Kelly's plane. Don't think anyone could find a better one. He knows mucho about Mooneys, and has a reputation as a stickler for detail.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Hank

[KLRDMD]

Just now, Hank said:

Sounds like Kelly's plane. Don't think anyone could find a better one. He knows mucho about Mooneys, and has a reputation as a stickler for detail.

Yes it is Kelly's airplane. Probably the most mechanically sound Mooney on the market today.

[Sophie]

Haha .. well I am blonde and pretty strong but alas middle age is catching up. At least I can afford an awesome plane now and I'll feel younger :-) it may be $100 salad runs if I need to keep up with her 

[Bob - S50]

One more thing to consider that I don't think anybody has mentioned.  Always ask about useful load.  I've seen at least one below 800#, many below 900#, a few above 1000#.  If you KNOW you will never want to take more than 3 people anywhere, it won't be as important.  However, when we were looking for ours, we were not interested in anything less than a 950# useful load.

[carusoam]

Don't forget the right seater too...

They can be uncomfortable swinging the gear left handed...

Follow the guidance given above,  there is an optimum speed for putting the gear up and a different speed for putting it down...

Convince Dev that he needs to get a longer Mooney...  His C is really nice and getting nicer each year...

When you get to transition training, also look into right seat training for the right seater at the same time...

Best regards,

-a-

[Bob_Belville]

8 hours ago, carusoam said:

Don't forget the right seater too...

They can be uncomfortable swinging the gear left handed...

Best regards,

-a-

Mooneygirl has owned a manual gear '65 M20E for many years but had never lowered the gear from the right seat until she did it in my '66E when we landed at KGGG last year. A non event, she reported.

[pinerunner]

Going from C/E to G/F gets you more room in back but ups the weight. I've got an E and I'm a little short, especially in the legs and the one time I filled all the seats (with 6 foot teenagers) there was no problem (at least for a short flight. It's very rare that I have someone to put in back so I've never wished I had an F model. On the other hand if you and your hubby are tall AND expect to put friends in back and fly a long way then you'll need the stretch models. With me and my wife (both 5'7" and grandkids in there's no problem fitting in the E. I read the G model was a little slow in the climb, certainly the slowest of all the Mooneys. My old E model really gets up there quick but I'm almost never at gross so maybe its not a fair comparison.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Hello Sophie.  I wish you success in locating "your bird".  Having had a horrible experience going through the buying process...I HIGHLY recommend looking toward a members "for sale" plane that has been updated, flown and loved.  Brokers are there to move a plane.  Curious on why you put (ladY) in your intro?  We are all pilots, yes?  Our sex doesn't matter regarding buying a plane, does it?

There are TONS of threads on mooneyspace to venture through to educate yourself on all things Mooney.  If I would have located my co-owner BEFORE entering the process I could have afforded a J.  Newer, Roomier, Faster...Better.  MORE EXPENSIVE?

Maybe.

There is a ceiling on vintage Mooney's value.  Putting money into avionics on a J is likely money better spent on resale someday.

A 201 with split removeable rear seats would be my starting point.

[Oldguy]

23 hours ago, Sophie said:

I'm now focused on looking for a well maintained Mooney, and in addition looking for one with limited AD's can help to make the aircraft more economical with respect to the annuals and regular (100/150/500) hour inspections. I gather the JBar removes a big one because it removes the need to inspect the duke motor/drive. In addition the prop seems to be another. Are there any other costly AD's that you think I should be looking out for ?

 

For the older Mooneys, the biggest "gotcha" can be corrosion. SB 208B addresses the inspection for the cage and is a fairly expensive one. Spar/spar cap corrosion, leaking fuel tanks (not resealed for a long time with noticeable staining), a doghouse in poor repair (it's a Mooney thing) and the dual head/single drive magneto overhaul interval are items that, while not necessarily ADs, can deliver serious hits to your checkbook. This is where the PPI with a knowledgeable Mooney mechanic is valuable.

Good hunting!

[Hank]

Watch useful load. Staying with the vintage models, it shouldn't be a problem--some E & F models have over 1000 lb. It will vary with installed equipment.

My C, one of the smallest Mooneys [short body] has 969 lb useful load, of which I dedicate 300 lb to fuel [capacity is 52 gallons, or 312 lb., but I leave about ½" air gap in both tanks for thermal expansion in the sun]. Being a short body, I run out of space before weight. This photo was a trip the wife and I took with friends in another plane; the gear is ours, and we added two of their bags because they couldn't take it all. So much for the "no room in a Mooney" argument . . .

[Sophie]

Just checking a couple of other questions across the group. Can I get some opinions

1. Someone told me that the most common speed mods the upgraded single windshield on the "F" (remove the center bar)  would effect the structural integrity of the plane. I'm having a bit of trouble believing it ... so I thought I'd get some opinions. I can't imagine the modification being allowed if there is a structural issue.

2. If I find a highly speed modified "E" or "F"... does that mean that you've got to very careful that I'm not pushing the structural integrity of the plane by being in the yellow on a frequent basis.

3. Non hangared M20J that still looks pretty good (bit at a lower price point) vs M20F or M20E that have been hangared. My inclination is the later ... the budget just won't stretch any further :-) for a perfect J. 

4. This is definitely a naive question ... there are some less expensive M20K's out there with reasonably high time on them. Based on the research I've done ... the cost of running a M20K seems MUCH higher and although it's a beautiful bird, it just seems to be asking for trouble especially as a newbie. Do I have this correct ?

MyNameisNobody asked why did I put (lady) in my title. Great question ! I've worked in technology for years and I've been lucky to develop a lot of skills working with many highly competent men and women. I appreciate and respect the different ways that men and women look and approach things. I guess it's my strange way of showing respect for the group, so that people providing advice so graciously, may know better where my question is coming from ... hopefully it wasn't inappropriate. 

 

 

 

 

[1964-M20E]

Sophie

There are different windshield mods on the earlier C, E & F models.  One is the single piece windshield and the other is a 201 windshield.  The single piece just replaces the 2 individual pieces of the original windshield.  The original design has 2 removable covers just behind the engine cowling that allows more access to the avionics.  This is good and bad depending on how well they are sealed against water intrusion.  The 201 windshield  has a longer slope to the front eliminates the access panels and is supposed to net you a few more knots airspeed.

As for a heavily speed modded F mine has all but the 201 cowling and I have never had any issues being in the yellow arc even during descents I keep it at 500fpm and right at the yellow arc.  If I need to descend faster I start pulling back on power.  Now on my old 64 E models with no mods I could see yellow more often but I think the airspeeds were lower for those years.  Flying any Mooney is about knowing the plane and how to slow it down for entry into the pattern or an approach not difficult just need to be ahead of the plane.  Once or twice I was not and ended up high and or fast so I did a go around no big deal.

As for the non hangared J if you get a good PPI on it and there is no corrosion or other items to be concerned about then yes I think that would be a good buy.

The K models get into turbocharged engines which means more attention needs to be paid to the engine and power settings along with the additional maintenance associated with the turbo.  Again get a good PPI on any plane you may be interested in.