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1981 M20J restoration


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On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 10:07 AM, Zwaustin said:

Ethics, business practice and morality being question now over a "similar" but far from exact scheme? I see planes all the time that give me ideas of how I want to paint mine by changing one or two things to tweak it to my liking.... Do you have a venmo or pay pal? I'm pondering a transfer of 450 to you and 450 to PTK to end this one :)

Can I accept this offer on behalf of jetdriven?  :)

My two cents is that lots of people derive or even copy paint schemes on airplanes.  If you are going to use a lot of the elements of someone else's paint scheme, its common courtesy in this day and age of being able to find anyone on line and email them and ask if its ok.  Id be annoyed if I saw someone with our paint scheme on the ramp, but I'd be flattered if someone called and asked us about using it on their plane.  That's how I feel about our airplane paint scheme.

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After reading all the posts on this thread I'm a bit surprised that so many people think it's fine to take someone's copyrighted work and use it for their own financial gain.

I'll admit that for the past three years I've been in great admiration of PTK's paint job. IMO it's probably the best looking Mooney I've ever seen. Still I wouldn't blatantly copy it (as JC admitted) without permission from Scheme Designers or PTK. I'd likely be less critical if this was just a private owner, but when a for-profit enterprise uses a copyrighted design without permission it seems beyond lazy and disrespectful.

As a copyright holder of musical compositions I strongly support those who respect intellectual property rights. But considering the huge volume of music and motion-picture piracy it's apparent that many of you don't give a rat's ass. On that point we'll just have to agree to disagree. Just my $0.02.

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I read here all the time but rarely add to conversation.  I have owned a few mooneys in my day, but thats a different story.

 

I sold that plane to JC, and the gang over at Daytona Aircraft.  I was going to use it for my summer project but have too many going on already.  After the sale, I was at lunch with him when we were pushing ideas on how to paint it back and forth across the table.  we even talked about just leaving it white with decals applied but he wanted a quality strip and paint.  There were as I recall 3 different paint ideas we both liked, and we got them from google searching "Mooney 201 Paint schemes" on the old I phone.

I do this all the time to find ones I like, and we were torn between the Ovation scheme on a J and something completely different like new piper archers with the dark color on top.

i liked a blue one we found that had a slightly different factory scheme, and he wanted to go with a two tone black white grey stripe thing.  As a broker, we talked about what will sell and get the most ramp appeal.  the ovation 2 FACTORY scheme was chosen and he liked the color combination of that particular plane,  then we added how it would look with heavy tinted windows.   As a matter of fact I think there is two or three color combos that are identical on the net, just search images.  Although the checkerboard is the only unique item about the paint job, it was not applied to N119MB.   Standard Mooney factory paint, he liked the color combo.  thats all.

to claim ownership of a color on a plane is crazy.  and the scheme is standard Mooney stuff that was applied to the two planes in debate, and MANY MANY others.

Daytona is a great place to bring a mooney, they do wonderful work maintaining and restoring them.  They work on my planes at times and the comments about how he handles his business ethics is just wrong  especially because he liked a color.

I award you no points.

 

 

 

I enjoy reading here.  I will now go back to hiding....  

 

 

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55 minutes ago, cnoe said:

After reading all the posts on this thread I'm a bit surprised that so many people think it's fine to take someone's copyrighted work and use it for their own financial gain.

I'll admit that for the past three years I've been in great admiration of PTK's paint job. IMO it's probably the best looking Mooney I've ever seen. Still I wouldn't blatantly copy it (as JC admitted) without permission from Scheme Designers or PTK. I'd likely be less critical if this was just a private owner, but when a for-profit enterprise uses a copyrighted design without permission it seems beyond lazy and disrespectful.

As a copyright holder of musical compositions I strongly support those who respect intellectual property rights. But considering the huge volume of music and motion-picture piracy it's apparent that many of you don't give a rat's ass. On that point we'll just have to agree to disagree. Just my $0.02.

If you claimed copyright to "Happy Birthday", would you feel that someone singing it without your permission was somehow wrong?  I don't feel that it is at all ok to steal intellectual property rights, I just don't see how it applies in this case.  This is a FACTORY PAINT SCHEME, if anyone has intellectual property rights it would be Mooney.  It's in the public domain, it can't be protected under copyright.  It's not an original design.  Just because someone slaps the words "copyright" under an image on a website doesn't make it so.  It's not registered, and no one in their right mind would not be able to see that its a copy of an extremely popular factory paint scheme.  It's the same color, you certainly can't copyright a color.

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What a stunning coincidence that JClemens was so inspired by this factory Ovation paint scheme that he managed to duplicate, exactly, about 15 design elements from N910BU.   I only have about 10minutes to type this, so I'll hit the high points.

Not only is it (1) Almost the exact same trim colors (they're a little off), but

(2) the exact same font and drop shadow of the N-Numbers

(3) the exact same placement of said N-Number

(4) the exact same waterline

(5) All three trim stripes begin and end on the exact same place as N910BU

(6) the trim stripe below the waterline, even how it ends right at the center of the N-number.

(7) The two trim stripes on the vertical stab are an exact match, down to the little divergence near the top.

(8) Waterline intersects the horizontal stab at mid-chord. Same.

(9) they managed to get the top trim stripe to just barely kiss the corner of the rear window,

(10) they also managed to split the trim stripes in the exactly same place over the pilot side knee air scoop.

 

Other than that, and the missing checkerboards, they're totally different.

None of these elements are the same on the Ovation paint job.

Tell me, JClemens, other than the slightly off shade of red and silver, and the missing checkerboards, how does your airplane differ from N910BU? And how is is the same as the Black Ovation you posted earlier? You continue to try to minimize the similarity or deny it, but its undeniable.  Facts are facts.


Lets call this what it is, theft of intellectual property to sell for personal gain. Tihs isnt some guy in Omaha who didnt know better, its a for-profit business.   Perhaps you have to try to defend this in court, which would be interesting. Maybe you'll get that chance.

if this is really the community standard, something a "pillar of the community" would actually try to do, it says much about the community itself, to let it go unchallenged.  Having spent dozens of hours on my paint scheme, (as did PTK), and working with not one but TWO airplane paint designers, I could not.

 

You can call me names, you can do what you want. But the first two planes are a remarkable similarity, while the last one, your posting, bears a passing resemblance.

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited by jetdriven
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Not to be argumentative, only to answer your question...

I believe "Happy Birthday" to indeed be in the public domain, but if I heard one of my original compositions being sung at a private party I'd be flattered. OTOH, if I saw an unlicensed version listed on iTunes you bet I'd sue.

If the Scheme Designer copyright is invalid as you assert then that's a serious problem for their business model and Mooney might have grounds for recourse against them. I too wonder if they've ever forced someone to repaint their plane as claimed.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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37 minutes ago, cnoe said:

Not to be argumentative, only to answer your question...

I believe "Happy Birthday" to indeed be in the public domain, but if I heard one of my original compositions being sung at a private party I'd be flattered. OTOH, if I saw an unlicensed version listed on iTunes you bet I'd sue.

The "Happy Birthday" song has only been public domain for a little while, and only after lengthy litigation.
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/warner-music-pays-14-million-863120

Even when you think you have a copyright, you may not.
 

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4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Tihs isnt some guy in Omaha who didnt know better, its a for-profit business.  

Ah that's right I forgot, all people from Omaha are clueless and none of them run for-profit businesses. Oh, hang on, isn't Warren Buffett from Omaha?

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Here are some paint schemes that I took from about 50 pictures I saw on the web when I was figuring out what to do during the repaint. I drawed them myself, but they still look like they might be ripped from every other paint scheme, the majority of which seem to be a dime a dozen.  

Inended up going with factory 77 design because I thought it looked cool. 

IMG_4471.PNG

IMG_4472.PNG

IMG_4473.PNG

IMG_4474.PNG

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42 minutes ago, bradp said:

Here are some paint schemes that I took from about 50 pictures I saw on the web when I was figuring out what to do during the repaint. I drawed them myself, but they still look like they might be ripped from every other paint scheme, the majority of which seem to be a dime a dozen.  

Inended up going with factory 77 design because I thought it looked cool. 

IMG_4471.PNG

IMG_4472.PNG

IMG_4473.PNG

IMG_4474.PNG

Can't beat the first one like you mentioned!!

I laugh and almost cringe every time I see a business jet with whispy "ribbons" down the side. Anyone ever seen what a ribbon looks like a 500kts?

-Matt

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On ‎6‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 4:22 AM, mike_elliott said:

Humm, when did Mooney start using this theme? I had my F painted in 2004 like this. I thought is was very original until I started seeing Ovations show up like it. The painter was an artist and craftsman.

Conor wanting another ride.JPG

I have the same type of dog.  And a similar paint scheme, though with different colors.  Our dogs our the same color though.

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8 minutes ago, jrwilson said:

I have the same type of dog.  And a similar paint scheme, though with different colors.  Our dogs our the same color though.

That photo was taken in 2004, the American Eskimo, Connor, was the greatest dog..loved to fly. He would accompany me on the weekends to I69 (Sportys) where we would visit my GF (now my wife) Alice. He had this intuition when I was going to go fly and would get between me and the car lobbying to go. Sadly, I lost this remarkable dog to coyote's in 2011. Jason and the rest of the Sporty's crew sent me a sympathy card and really did miss Connor. It is because of him I now teach to leave the flaps in TO position when shutting down. It keeps people, even experienced, from stepping on them and allows dogs to jump up onto the wingwalk safely.

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1 minute ago, mike_elliott said:

That photo was taken in 2004, the American Eskimo, Connor, was the greatest dog..loved to fly. He would accompany me on the weekends to I69 (Sportys) where we would visit my GF (now my wife) Alice. He had this intuition when I was going to go fly and would get between me and the car lobbying to go. Sadly, I lost this remarkable dog to coyote's in 2011. Jason and the rest of the Sporty's crew sent me a sympathy card and really did miss Connor. It is because of him I now teach to leave the flaps in TO position when shutting down. It keeps people, even experienced, from stepping on them and allows dogs to jump up onto the wingwalk safely.

Aww, sounds like he was a good boy.  My dog, Lily, is not too bright, but she is good natured and the wife really likes her  :) 

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40 minutes ago, jrwilson said:

Aww, sounds like he was a good boy.  My dog, Lily, is not too bright, but she is good natured and the wife really likes her  :) 

I have always contended that a dog that is not too bright is the best choice. If they are too smart, they may abandon their owner for a better deal.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Mike261
On 6/20/2017 at 2:34 PM, Bill O'Brien said:

I read here all the time but rarely add to conversation.  I have owned a few mooneys in my day, but thats a different story.

 

I sold that plane to JC, and the gang over at Daytona Aircraft.  I was going to use it for my summer project but have too many going on already.  After the sale, I was at lunch with him when we were pushing ideas on how to paint it back and forth across the table.  we even talked about just leaving it white with decals applied but he wanted a quality strip and paint.  There were as I recall 3 different paint ideas we both liked, and we got them from google searching "Mooney 201 Paint schemes" on the old I phone.

I do this all the time to find ones I like, and we were torn between the Ovation scheme on a J and something completely different like new piper archers with the dark color on top.

i liked a blue one we found that had a slightly different factory scheme, and he wanted to go with a two tone black white grey stripe thing.  As a broker, we talked about what will sell and get the most ramp appeal.  the ovation 2 FACTORY scheme was chosen and he liked the color combination of that particular plane,  then we added how it would look with heavy tinted windows.   As a matter of fact I think there is two or three color combos that are identical on the net, just search images.  Although the checkerboard is the only unique item about the paint job, it was not applied to N119MB.   Standard Mooney factory paint, he liked the color combo.  thats all.

to claim ownership of a color on a plane is crazy.  and the scheme is standard Mooney stuff that was applied to the two planes in debate, and MANY MANY others.

Daytona is a great place to bring a mooney, they do wonderful work maintaining and restoring them.  They work on my planes at times and the comments about how he handles his business ethics is just wrong  especially because he liked a color.

I award you no points.

 

 

 

I enjoy reading here.  I will now go back to hiding....  

 

 

Bill...

How the hell are you?

46x has been fine airplane, hard to believe it was three years ago now.

Mike

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Mike

Holy cow my plane!!  well er.. your plane.  That pic is in my hangar at spruce, incredible how clean my hangar was back then.    I hope it is treating you well, I loved that Allegro.

I am busy as ever, flying and running a leasing business.  I own planes that I lease to flight schools and as always am busy working on others. My maintenance shop is pretty busy lately and I  Hate to say it but I now have a 550 powered bona&%#@  that I fly 200 hrs a year.  not nearly as efficient for the extra 15 knots.

When you are in town, stop by, Lunch is on me.

 

Best

Bill

 

 

 

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