IFR approaches

[teg916]

I am still getting used to the Mooney.  I just shot my first set of practice approaches.

 

I am curious, what approach speeds, configuration, and power settings do you find works well for you guys?  My CFII had me fly at 120 MPH, no flaps.  What is everybody's preference for approaches and why?

[Guitarmaster]

Depends on the airport.

Normal is 120, gear down, no flap.

KMDW? (Or any airport where you are being chased by jets) 160 to the marker, yank power, gear on speed. Land.

I land no flap on solid IFR approaches. Too may configuration changes down low = not good.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[mikefox]

In my M20J, I use 14" MP, 2500 RPM and gear down at glideslope intercept.  Gives me about 110-120 knots.  12" MP for non-precision descents.

[peevee]

22 inches and 2300rpm puts me about 110.

Flaps up until landing assured. Gear out at faf.

[201er]

This has got to be the most common question on Mooneyspace. Maybe you guys can sticky the answer to one of these?

[Hank]

33 minutes ago, 201er said:

This has got to be the most common question on Mooneyspace. Maybe you guys can sticky the answer to one of these?

Except it varies by model and year. My (electric) gear speed is 120 mph, and flap speed is 125 mph; most Jbars and hydraulic flaps are significantly lower.

I like to enter an approach slowing towards 105 mph  (90 knots) with ~16"/2300, and drop Takeoff Flaps when able (add 2" to hold speed). Then at FAF, or 1-1/2 dots high on the glideslope, I drop the gear, touch nothing and down the glideslope I come. No, I'm not high on the glideslope, the needle is a dot and a half high, glideslope is better intercepted from below for improved safety. 

[teg916]

Thanks for the tips guys.  

[Ftlausa]

Why such a fast approach speed?  I was trained in the transition training to slow to 90 to 100 kts with the gear and first notch past the FAF.   

[Bob_Belville]

10 minutes ago, Ftlausa said:

Why such a fast approach speed?  I was trained in the transition training to slow to 90 to 100 kts with the gear and first notch past the FAF.   

I like the 90-100 kias but with a flap speed max of 87 kias I generally do not extend flaps until I have the runway environs in sight. (With a max gear speed of 104 kias, It is not easy to mix in with transport traffic in vintage Mooneys. I recall going into Dulles years ago, 200&1/2, going as fast as I could but the airliner behind me was sent around. I apologized to the tower while rolling out but he assured me it was the other guy's fault for exceeding the speed he had been assigned.)

[Marauder]

12 hours ago, 201er said:

This has got to be the most common question on Mooneyspace. Maybe you guys can sticky the answer to one of these?

I agree, It's right up there with "Which one of Marauder's girls is the best looking?"

I have flown a few times with people as a safety pilot and the thing I see frequently is the blistering speed they want to fly approaches. The whole idea behind flying a decent approach is flying it in a stabilized manner. In SP IFR, you got enough on your plate, why complicate it? 

[Danb]

14 hours ago, 201er said:

This has got to be the most common question on Mooneyspace. Maybe you guys can sticky the answer to one of these?

Except lots of differing answers, whatever works for your brain

Going into West Palm last month they wanted me to do 170 until short final, I slightly hesitated the controller said I could hold for about 10-15 minutes I said I'll do 170, I was slowing to about 150 the dude came back and asked for best forward speed, no problem, I don't think I'll be back where I'm definitely not wanted, next time into Lantana 

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, Danb said:

Except lots of differing answers, whatever works for your brain

Going into West Palm last month they wanted me to do 170 until short final, I slightly hesitated the controller said I could hold for about 10-15 minutes I said I'll do 170, I was slowing to about 150 the dude came back and asked for best forward speed, no problem, I don't think I'll be back where I'm definitely not wanted, next time into Lantana 

You'll be fine going into W. Palm, just don't dilly-dally around in front of Air Force 1!! 

[David Medders]

The standard profile in my Bravo:

• Arrive at FAF at 135 KIAS (Vlo(ext) - minus 5),
• Gear down at FAF -- formerly used one-dot, but this is a smoother ride IMO,
• Flaps 10 at 105 KIAS (Vfe - 5) by 2 miles to threshold,
• Slow to 85 KIAS (Vref + 5) by the threshold,
• Land flaps 10 in the box (aiming point -250 to +500 feet) -- No need for flaps full, as I rarely use short runways and it is easy to start the miss in this configuration.

Contrary to urban legend, a continuous reduction in speed from the FAF to touchdown is a stabilized approach. 

Why keep so much speed? The airplane feels more stable and it helps blend with jet traffic. If you aspire to jets, might as well learn now. 

My advice: know the power settings that will get you close to target speed for every phase of flight, not just approach.

Cheers,

David

[Bob - S50]

David,

I don't like flying final at full flap speed either.  The other day I was curious how long I could keep my speed up if ATC asked me to do so.  I know I need gear down on the glideslope or the plane will get too fast and I won't be able to lower it without leveling off and going well above glideslope.  With that in mind I flew down the glideslope with gear down and 120 KIAS.  At 2000' MSL (easy to remember) I went to idle (and maintained GS with pitch - normal for me anyway).  Once I was down to 100 KIAS, I went full flaps and continued to slow to my final approach speed of 65 KIAS.  It only took 400' (about 1.3 miles) of altitude loss while staying on the glideslope.  Now I have a pretty good idea of how long I can keep my speed up.

[gsxrpilot]

I figure any ILS approach where there would likely be jet traffic behind me or any other reason for ATC to ask me to maintain best forward speed, will also have plenty of runway. Therefore 90 knots over the numbers works out just fine.

[Mooneymite]

On 3/2/2017 at 10:13 AM, Marauder said:

I have flown a few times with people as a safety pilot and the thing I see frequently is the blistering speed they want to fly approaches. The whole idea behind flying a decent approach is flying it in a stabilized manner. In SP IFR, you got enough on your plate, why complicate it? 

I'm not sure "complicate" is the right word.  In a busy IMC environment, one must be "adaptable".  Newbie, low instrument time pilots need to do what is safe and comfortable, but as experience grows, you realize you ain't the only plane trying to use the airspace.  It's all part of being situationally aware and considerate of others.

That being said, don't kill yourself trying to fit in.

[Mooneymite]

Question:  Why do people call them "practice approaches"?  Does this mean they aren't real approaches?  You may be doing the procedures in VMC with a safety pilot, but unless you made it up strictly for training, it is a "real approach".

Practice approaches are done on a computer or in a simulator where if you make a fatal mistake, you don't get hurt.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Mooneymite

[midlifeflyer]

7 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Question:  Why do people call them "practice approaches"?  Does this mean they aren't real approaches?  You may be doing the procedures in VMC with a safety pilot, but unless you made it up strictly for training, it is a "real approach".

Practice approaches are done on a computer or in a simulator where if you make a fatal mistake, you don't get hurt.

Same reason doctors and lawyers "practice" for real?

[Hondo]

For a J and just to keep it simple, assume the jets and ATC aren’t pushing you.

Approach level 2400 at 17 for about 120
At GS or FAF, gear down
Prop forward
Flaps half to reduce stall by about 6 knots
Fly ILS at 90 to 100 knots
For non precision
    5 T’s
    Descent -800 to MDA+300, -500 to MDA +50
    Level MP to 20 for about 90
Full flaps optional with runway in sight
Stabilize on final and plan to cross threshold at 70

[carusoam]

Teg,

Are you familiar with MAPA?

They have an interesting training that is Mooney specific.  Done about four times per year around the country...  

you get to sit in on interesting Mooney presentations with other interesting Mooney pilots.  Part of the training includes flying your plane on various types of approaches with a Mooney specific CFII.

The fun part is that you get to select how challenging the approaches need to be.  Sitting at lunch while other pilots describe what is challenging to them.  Some will be doing radar approaches, others doing partial panel exercises, and some just getting a better feel for a plane that is new to them...

the MAPA hand-out has a section for each model of Mooney.  A Really cool document...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 5, 2017 by carusoam

[jlunseth]

I do 120 kts. to the FAF, but at the FAF its Time, Gear, Power, Tower, Lights, Lights, Lights.  The gear dropping alone will slow the plane and I add half flaps and reduce power enough to make 90 on the descent from the FAF.  There is a reason for hitting 90 and staying there.  What's your alternate missed on an ILS or VOR if you lose your DME or GPS?  Its time.  That's the little box in the lower right hand corner of the plate.  How are you going to know your time to the MAP/DH if you are constantly changing speed on that descent?

[Cyril Gibb]

On 2017-03-04 at 10:53 AM, David Medders said:

Contrary to urban legend, a continuous reduction in speed from the FAF to touchdown is a stabilized approach. 

Chacun a son gout (Each to his own...).   Everyone should adopt whatever technique works for them. 

I was taught that a stabilised approach, once I intercept the glideslope, was one with ZERO changes in configuration, speed, trim or (mostly) power.  If I do it correctly, I do nothing other than monitor with my scan and keep the needles centered until I break out or go missed.

The one rare exception is power during approaches with significant changing headwind components. I don't have (or want) autotrim and don't see the need to trim on an approach.  If the autopilot is engaged I use power to keep my speed nailed.  If I'm hand flying, I use power to maintain glideslope.

Hopefully this doesn't begin yet another pitch vs power discussion.

Edit after reading and agreeing with Bartmans append below....  my comments were based on flying an approach close to minimums.  If I'm expecting to break out early, I'm not as worried about configuration other than trying to be consistent for the times I need to be.

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

I do 120 kts. to the FAF, but at the FAF its Time, Gear, Power, Tower, Lights, Lights, Lights.  The gear dropping alone will slow the plane and I add half flaps and reduce power enough to make 90 on the descent from the FAF.  There is a reason for hitting 90 and staying there.  What's your alternate missed on an ILS or VOR if you lose your DME or GPS?  Its time.  That's the little box in the lower right hand corner of the plate.  How are you going to know your time to the MAP/DH if you are constantly changing speed on that descent?

A couple comments.

I applaud you for timing (I can't remember the last time I did).

If you are flying an ILS or LPV, you go missed on altitude not timing.  If you lose the GPS during the LPV you go missed anyway.  Timing would only apply for the LOC approach if you don't have a GS, or a VOR or ADF approach.

Many (if not most) no longer have timing info, so it isn't even an option.  If the approach has the term DME included in the title, it probably won't have timing available.  The last non-ILS/non-RNAV approach I flew was the VOR/DME RWY 35 at Olympia, WA (OLM) and it doesn't have a timing block.

While changing speeds would affect timing, how many people take into account altitude and winds when they figure their timing?  The speeds shown are groundspeed, not indicated airspeed.  Winds affect the timing.  Changing winds during the descent affect the timing.  Being in Colorado vs Florida affects the timing.

[Bartman]

It depends.  If I know based on ATIS that I'm going to break out well above minimums and have plenty of time to slow down, then I do 120 knots gear down without flaps down the glide slope.  If I'm going to break out close to minimums then Drop the gear and do 90 knots with 1/2 flaps own the glide slope. If it's a long runway and jet traffic behind then I have no prob with gear up and best speed, pitch up, drop the gear and flaps, and land.  Just don't wait to try to slow down in ground effect because that will get you in trouble. slow down and then drop down to ground effect.  

[David Medders]

31 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

I was taught that a stabilised approach, once I intercept the glideslope, was one with ZERO changes in configuration, speed, trim or (mostly) power.

1

This is, of course, a stabilized approach. This type of instruction is the reason for my comment regarding continuous slowing from FAF to touchdown.

Nail-the-speed-and-configuration is easier to teach for the CFII and easier to learn for the student. It is not the only way to do a stabilized approach. Most everything with a turbine is slowing from FAF to touchdown, but this harder to teach than nail-the-speed-and-configuration.

I really enjoy following a C172 doing a 65 KIAS "stabilized" approach. 

David