Low Time Mooney Pilots, What is your Crosswind Comfort?

[BradB]

Ok. I know- thread creep, but it is fun to go fast.  This was at the top of the decent.  The ground speeds most of the way we're around 305.  

 

 

[MQQNEY]

I'm a low time Mooney pilot, about as low as you'd find in fact, with maybe 10 solo hours I'd guess. To my surprise, I appear to have handled crosswinds of up to 10 to 12 knots with relative ease, ( 12 kts being the max. Demonstrated for this plane ). Pretty much the same as with my old Cherokee. Gusting? Well, that can make me a little nervous at the best of times, you just need to be on your game and not be caught out by gusting winds I would suggest.

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, MQQNEY said:

I'm a low time Mooney pilot, about as low as you'd find in fact, with maybe 10 solo hours I'd guess. To my surprise, I appear to have handled crosswinds of up to 10 to 12 knots with relative ease, ( 12 kts being the max. Demonstrated for this plane ). Pretty much the same as with my old Cherokee. Gusting? Well, that can make me a little nervous at the best of times, you just need to be on your game and not be caught out by gusting winds I would suggest.

I get to Sydney a couple of times a year. And I used to live there. Next time I'm going down under, I'll look you up. I'd love to go for a ride in your C in exchange for a tank of 100LL. I've got about 500 Mooney hours, most of them in a C. But it's never enough.

[MQQNEY]

5 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I get to Sydney a couple of times a year. And I used to live there. Next time I'm going down under, I'll look you up. I'd love to go for a ride in your C in exchange for a tank of 100LL. I've got about 500 Mooney hours, most of them in a C. But it's never enough.

You'd be most welcome aboard sir! I shall look forward to that possibility. There's some nice scenic flying to be done around Sydney.

[FloridaMan]

29kts with full flaps. 

[Gary0747]

On 3/6/2017 at 6:59 AM, pinerunner said:

If I need to lose a lot of altitude quick I use a bit of a forward slip, 90 MPH, and full flaps. I was shy about it at first; it's not a Piper Cub after all. When I was being checked out in the plane I was thinking of purchasing (the seller let me get my biannual in it; great sales strategy) the instructor had me practicing forced landings. In one instance I was too high for the field I had picked and was going pick another. Idling and full flaps we were clearly going to overshoot. His response was no; you picked it you got to make it. So I shifted the nose over and dropped the opposite wing and down we came. Since I knew I was flying one of those scary laminar flow wing airplanes I glanced at the airspeed and kept it close to 90 MPH. He grinned at me and said that was what he was looking for. 

It doesn't take an extreme slip to change our slippery profile and generate drag if you want it.

I did watch a vid where an arobatic plane set up an extreme slip and stalled it. It flipped (as in rolled) a complete revolution in the opposite direction from what you'd get with a skid. So while I do believe slips are less dangerous than skids I don't think you should get too cozy with them. Speed control is the game with these planes, especially the older Mooneys like mine that don't give you much room between the stall speed and the maximum flap extension speed which is so easy to exceed.

Don't be afraid of slips but do master your speed control.   

 

[Gary0747]

I have always been afraid of extreem slips with full flaps in a Mooney on final. Anybody else?

[carusoam]

Gary,

Ask 201er, await the response of why an AOAi can work for you.

Just to clear things up, can you specify what your version of extreme is and what bothers you?

why would you want to use this maneuver on final? Never mind the extreme version.

When things like this comes up...  fear of a particular maneuver, I look for answers... read, practice at altitude, ask here, or Best response... fly with a Mooney specific instructor....

If your fear is being too slow and cross controlled at the same time.  Use altitude as your cushion to practice slow flight while cross controlled and descending.

Make sure you know what the sight picture is supposed to look like.  Know your weight and balance.  All the technical details are important to know before venturing off into this area.  Start with mild before going stepwise more towards 'extreme'.  I use the word 'extreme' to describe full rudder deflection on my 65M20C.  It isn't a very extreme change of attitude...

Make all entries and exits smoothly.  Snapping into or out of cross controlled flight is highly discouraged...

i learned about this by applying my C152 experience less than correctly to My M20C.

Comfort comes from experience. Experience comes from practice.  Ability to practice starts with proper training.

If you have the training and experience and recent practice and you are still afraid, you can buy the speed brakes or learn to control your energy better....  

PP experience only, not a CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 14, 2017 by carusoam

[Gary0747]

I have a Bendix King AOA but I still have a healthy respect of the potential for inadvertant stall spin in Mooneys  I have 1900 hours in this Mooney and have done lots of practice and manuviers as you suggest.  I know of several very experienced Mooney pilots even one factory test pilot who are no longer with us due to inadvertant stall spin accidents. I will not do accelerated stalls in a Mooney regardless of altitude.  Others will. Certification is only for 2.5 spins and after that you may or not recover.   Some will use an extreem cross controlled slip with flaps on final to try to save a go around or slow down from ATC requesting more speed due to other traffic potentially conflicting. I am concerned the results may not be all that predictable due to unforseen wind gust or shear.  Flaps will increase the risk of a tail stall inaddition to the stall spin potential from cross control.  I was just asking for others experience or opinions for use of this manuver on final. 

Edited March 16, 2017 by Gary0747

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

I have a Bendix King AOA but I still have a healthy respect of the potential for inadvertant stall spin in Mooneys  I have 1900 hours in this Mooney and have done lots of practice and manuviers as you suggest.  I know of several very experienced Mooney pilots even one factory test pilot who are no longer with us due to inadvertant stall spin accidents. I will not do accelerated stalls in a Mooney regardless of altitude.  Others will. Certification is only for 2.5 spins and after that you may or not recover.   Some will use an extreem cross controlled slip with flaps on final to try to save a go around or slow down from ATC requesting more speed due to other traffic potentially conflicting. I am concerned the results may not be all that predictable due to unforseen wind gust or shear.  Flaps will increase the risk of a tail stall inaddition to the stall spin potential from cross control.  I was just asking for others experience or opinions for use of this manuver on final. 

I have forward slipped my F model with full deflection across what I consider a wide speed spectrum and in all configurations, I've never experienced a decrease in elevator authority even at speeds under 75mph. It's a non-event. I will say that one must always be aware of conditions and wing loading.

[exM20K]

I have always been afraid of extreem slips with full flaps in a Mooney on final. Anybody else?

My K would exhibit a tail buffet in a full-flap, moderately aggressive slip. I straightened up and went around.
-de

[DXB]

22 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

I have a Bendix King AOA but I still have a healthy respect of the potential for inadvertant stall spin in Mooneys  I have 1900 hours in this Mooney and have done lots of practice and manuviers as you suggest.  I know of several very experienced Mooney pilots even one factory test pilot who are no longer with us due to inadvertant stall spin accidents. I will not do accelerated stalls in a Mooney regardless of altitude.  Others will. Certification is only for 2.5 spins and after that you may or not recover.   Some will use an extreem cross controlled slip with flaps on final to try to save a go around or slow down from ATC requesting more speed due to other traffic potentially conflicting. I am concerned the results may not be all that predictable due to unforseen wind gust or shear.  Flaps will increase the risk of a tail stall inaddition to the stall spin potential from cross control.  I was just asking for others experience or opinions for use of this manuver on final. 

 

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I have forward slipped my F model with full deflection across what I consider a wide speed spectrum and in all configurations, I've never experienced a decrease in elevator authority even at speeds under 75mph. It's a non-event. I will say that one must always be aware of conditions and wing loading.

Im also curious to know what others think about full flap, throttle idle, steep descent forward slip-  Since I've gotten a little practice with it in my speed brake-less C, I really like having it in the bag of tricks.  I keep the airspeed 80-90 to have some gust cushion, and it definitely lets you salvage some situations rather than go around. In principle at least, this seems pretty safe.   I don't really want to take it out of the bag of tricks but can be convinced. 

[donkaye]

15 minutes ago, DXB said:

 

Im also curious to know what others think about full flap, throttle idle, steep descent forward slip-  Since I've gotten a little practice with it in my speed brake-less C, I really like having it in the bag of tricks.  I keep the airspeed 80-90 to have some gust cushion, and it definitely lets you salvage some situations rather than go around. In principle at least, this seems pretty safe.   I don't really want to take it out of the bag of tricks but can be convinced. 

In my opinion safe but very poor pilot technique and passenger prohibitive.  If you have to slip a Mooney and there was not an obstacle on the approach requiring it, it would be a good idea to get together with a good Mooney instructor and get some additional training.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

 

Im also curious to know what others think about full flap, throttle idle, steep descent forward slip-  Since I've gotten a little practice with it in my speed brake-less C, I really like having it in the bag of tricks.  I keep the airspeed 80-90 to have some gust cushion, and it definitely lets you salvage some situations rather than go around. In principle at least, this seems pretty safe.   I don't really want to take it out of the bag of tricks but can be convinced. 

 

49 minutes ago, donkaye said:

In my opinion safe but very poor pilot technique and passenger prohibitive.  If you have to slip a Mooney and there was not an obstacle on the approach requiring it, it would be a good idea to get together with a good Mooney instructor and get some additional training.

I agree, poor planning for the approach and not something I'm sure my passengers would enjoy. However, it can be done. During my transition training we did one due to my poor planning and arriving way too high. Turned for about a 4 mile final needing to lose about 4,000' so in went full flaps, throttle to idle, and full rudder deflection as I slipped all the way down before straightening out on short final. It was a non-event. If I had been flying without my CFI I would have just gone around, or asked the tower to extend out my downwind to lose altitude but my CFI wanted me to do it. I was glad for the experience with him there in the right seat so that I could see it can be done safely if necessary.

[DXB]

So I guess I'm a poor planner with bad technique  In my defense, its not too often that I end up  high on final.  But when it does happen, the slip sure does change the situation from frustrating to kinda fun 

[Shadrach]

 

21 hours ago, donkaye said:

In my opinion safe but very poor pilot technique and passenger prohibitive.  If you have to slip a Mooney and there was not an obstacle on the approach requiring it, it would be a good idea to get together with a good Mooney instructor and get some additional training.

We part ways on this one. Slips are common place in other types of little airplanes (especially those with no flaps), why is slipping a Mooney poor technique? Is practicing short approaches poor technique?  Why shouldn't a Mooney pilot be comfortable slipping their aircraft? 

 Are you always dead solid perfect on altitude and speed for every approach into an unfamiliar field? Never high and fast due to traffic, ATC or God forbid your own mistake?  If you did make a mistake and found yourself high and fast on an approach that was easily salvaged with a slip would you opt to go around instead?...would you schedule recurrent training after terminating the flight? 

I agree slips should be avoided in the case of new passenger or nervous flyers, but passenger prohibitive? Are crosswinds passenger prohibitive as well. Are Stearmans and Pitts passenger prohibitive aircraft (the sight picture on approach with the ball centered leaves a bit to be desired)?

I've seen more than a few Mooneys "parked" in the weeds off the departure end of a runway. One at my home drome and another at one of my favorite "little airports", Clearview (2W2). Same outcome but one had 1600ft to get it down and stopped and the other had nearly 6000ft. I'd bet you dollars to donuts that neither of these guys was comfortable doing slips to scrub extra energy.

 

 

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

 

We part ways on this one. Slips are common place in other types of little airplanes (especially those with no flaps), why is slipping a Mooney poor technique? Is practicing short approaches poor technique?  Why shouldn't a Mooney pilot be comfortable slipping their aircraft? 

 Are you always dead solid perfect on altitude and speed for every approach into an unfamiliar field? Never high and fast due to traffic, ATC or God forbid your own mistake?  If you did make a mistake and found yourself high and fast on an approach that was easily salvaged with a slip would you opt to go around instead?...would you schedule recurrent training after terminating the flight? 

I agree slips should be avoided in the case of new passenger or nervous flyers, but passenger prohibitive? Are crosswinds passenger prohibitive as well. Are Stearmans and Pitts passenger prohibitive aircraft (the sight picture on approach with the ball centered leaves a bit to be desired)?

I've seem more than a few Mooneys "parked" in the weeds off the departure end of a runway. One at my home drome and another at one of my favorite "little airports", Clearview (2W2). Same outcome but one had 1600ft to get it down and stopped and the other had nearly 6000ft. I'd bet you dollars to donuts that neither of these guys was comfortable doing slips to scrub extra energy.

 

 

I just got finished with an Acclaim training in Chicago.  Over a 4 day period of time we did 85 landings in all types of crappy bumpy winds and crosswinds before I signed him off as a competent Mooney pilot.  He has not been the only one with a lot of landings before I was satisfied that both airspeed and slope management were completely understood.  Based on the number of students I've had over the past 23 years I'd estimate I've done in excess of 24,000 landings with various people.  I think there is a possibility that I understand landing an airplane and a Mooney in particular.  However, in the off chance I'm appearing somewhat arrogant, I chose to wait overnight in Beatrice, NE last week on my way to DuPage to deliver the plane to him.  With the above mentioned experience I chose NOT to tackle winds of 29G49 with Peak Gusts of 52 at angles of 60° off the runway.   The next day after I arrived in somewhat calmer but still bumpy conditions,  I asked the FBO if any small single engine airplanes had come in the day before.  The answer was No.

So, I don't care about other airplanes without flaps and the manner pilots choose to land them.  This topic is about landing Mooneys.  Should a pilot know how to slip an airplane?  Yes.  Should it be in his bag of tricks? Yes.  Should he use it on final in a crosswind?  In my opinion, No.  For various reasons, I choose the crab transitioning to wing low in the flare in crosswinds.  Without obstacles or an emergency where  you want to be high, should there EVER be any need to slip a Mooney?  No.  Not even on a short approach where distance from the runway can adjust for the correct short approach distance..

Regarding your second paragraph above; with the experience that I have acquired as a result of being fortunate enough to have devoted full time to being a flight instructor over the past 23 years,  I would challenge you to find one of my students who would say I wouldn't see that situation develop long before a slip would be necessary.  It's about mentally being way ahead of the airplane and truly understanding how Pitch and Power control an airplane and, therefore, airspeed and slope in landing.

So, yes, I guess we do part ways on this one.

[M016576]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

I just got finished with an Acclaim training in Chicago.  Over a 4 day period of time we did 85 landings in all types of crappy bumpy winds and crosswinds before I signed him off as a competent Mooney pilot.  He has not been the only one with a lot of landings before I was satisfied that both airspeed and slope management were completely understood.  Based on the number of students I've had over the past 23 years I'd estimate I've done in excess of 24,000 landings with various people.  I think there is a possibility that I understand landing an airplane and a Mooney in particular.  However, in the off chance I'm appearing somewhat arrogant, I chose to wait overnight in Beatrice, NE last week on my way to DuPage to deliver the plane to him.  With the above mentioned experience I chose NOT to tackle winds of 29G49 with Peak Gusts of 52 at angles of 60° off the runway.   The next day after I arrived in somewhat calmer but still bumpy conditions,  I asked the FBO if any small single engine airplanes had come in the day before.  The answer was No.

So, I don't care about other airplanes without flaps and the manner pilots choose to land them.  This topic is about landing Mooneys.  Should a pilot know how to slip an airplane?  Yes.  Should it be in his bag of tricks? Yes.  Should he use it on final in a crosswind?  In my opinion, No.  For various reasons, I choose the crab transitioning to wing low in the flare in crosswinds.  Without obstacles or an emergency where  you want to be high, should there EVER be any need to slip a Mooney?  No.  Not even on a short approach where distance from the runway can adjust for the correct short approach distance..

Regarding your second paragraph above; with the experience that I have acquired as a result of being fortunate enough to have devoted full time to being a flight instructor over the past 23 years,  I would challenge you to find one of my students who would say I wouldn't see that situation develop long before a slip would be necessary.  It's about mentally being way ahead of the airplane and truly understanding how Pitch and Power control an airplane and, therefore, airspeed and slope in landing.

So, yes, I guess we do part ways on this one.

At some point in the flare, though, you are transitioning to a side-slip (not a forward slip, per se)- otherwise you're landing on a loaded main and chewing up a tire (or worse, collapsing a gear).  What's the disadvantage or reason that it's bad technique to use a side slip vs. a crab in a mooney, assuming both pilots are on glideslope, and on speed?  The reason I ask is I've been using side slips my whole aviation career because that was how I was trained in navy flight school (so I'm most comfortable with that)- but I'm open to trying crabbing- or, if it's a safety issue, I'd like to know.

heres why I like using a side-slip vs crab:

1) looking out the front of the aircraft, vs side window.

2) don't need to "kick out" the rudder during the flare or ground effect to align fuselage: you're already stabilized in a landable condition going into the flare.

3) slightly higher power setting to achieve same glideslope/ias during gusty conditions.  This can also be a disadvantage- but if the approach needs to be terminated, or you hit a downdraft: just level the wings and you get a little extra instant lift.  This is probably a much bigger deal in the jets I fly do to engine spool up.  Our piston aircraft have near instant power response anyway.

I haven't been instructing in mooneys for 23 years- and the pilots I do instruct are already somewhat experienced when they get to me- so if I'm missing something that's GA or Mooney specific, please let me know.  The best advantage I can see to a crab is that setting up the approach, and power management are the same as a no wind approach, and passengers won't feel the rudder inputs until the roundout/flare.  The disadvantage is that the pilot is changing his/her method to control drift in the final seconds, and if the pilot mis-times the transition, or the bottom falls out of a gust before the pilot is prepared- you could land side-loaded.  Unless you're making the transition higher up the glide slope.

ive found a side slip effective at controlling crosswind components in a mooney in excess of 20 knots (the last time I was in this predicament the winds were 50 degrees off runway axis: I was diverting due to a snow storm at my intended field- this field was VMC, but high winds- 30G40... the landing rollout was very short.). I don't takeoff/plan to fly in high crosswinds, but I'm prepared in the event I am forced to deal with them.  I have yet to try crabbing- maybe that will be my next "mooney training event."

edit: I do agree that if you're using a forward slip because you're high on glideslope- chances are that could have been prevented by being ahead of the aircraft... unless of course it's a slam dunk, or there's an obstacle.  Even with the slam dunk- you can sometimes expect it... and (heresy in a mooney) slow down (JK!)

Edited March 18, 2017 by M016576

[Yetti]

For the amount of air that gets pushed down on the runway at the wrong time vs. the couple knots difference between full and half flaps. Half flaps in gusty cross winds will help the landing. Texas is gusty crosswinds most of the Spring.  The mooney will fall amazingly fast at full flaps, idle power and bottom speed brakes out. Even half flaps it will fall just as fast.

One wheel landings will keep the gusts from picking up the wing at the wrong time.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

I just got finished with an Acclaim training in Chicago.  Over a 4 day period of time we did 85 landings in all types of crappy bumpy winds and crosswinds before I signed him off as a competent Mooney pilot.  He has not been the only one with a lot of landings before I was satisfied that both airspeed and slope management were completely understood.  Based on the number of students I've had over the past 23 years I'd estimate I've done in excess of 24,000 landings with various people.  I think there is a possibility that I understand landing an airplane and a Mooney in particular.  However, in the off chance I'm appearing somewhat arrogant, I chose to wait overnight in Beatrice, NE last week on my way to DuPage to deliver the plane to him.  With the above mentioned experience I chose NOT to tackle winds of 29G49 with Peak Gusts of 52 at angles of 60° off the runway.   The next day after I arrived in somewhat calmer but still bumpy conditions,  I asked the FBO if any small single engine airplanes had come in the day before.  The answer was No.

So, I don't care about other airplanes without flaps and the manner pilots choose to land them.  This topic is about landing Mooneys.  Should a pilot know how to slip an airplane?  Yes.  Should it be in his bag of tricks? Yes.  Should he use it on final in a crosswind?  In my opinion, No.  For various reasons, I choose the crab transitioning to wing low in the flare in crosswinds.  Without obstacles or an emergency where  you want to be high, should there EVER be any need to slip a Mooney?  No.  Not even on a short approach where distance from the runway can adjust for the correct short approach distance..

Regarding your second paragraph above; with the experience that I have acquired as a result of being fortunate enough to have devoted full time to being a flight instructor over the past 23 years,  I would challenge you to find one of my students who would say I wouldn't see that situation develop long before a slip would be necessary.  It's about mentally being way ahead of the airplane and truly understanding how Pitch and Power control an airplane and, therefore, airspeed and slope in landing.

So, yes, I guess we do part ways on this one.

I think most of us are aware of and have a great deal of respect for your experience. I can't think of a time in these pages where we've differed on much (I believe we were in total agreement just a few pages ago).  With all of the landings you've done, how much of it was done instructing a pilot in the say their "new to them" C model which they wanted to base out of a <2000' strip. There is an airport near me that fits that description and there is a C model based there.  It's a 1840' strip  located on a plateau with a 2.1% grade it has a 244DT on the downhill runway and a 330'DT on the uphill runway.  It is favorable to land uphill until winds negate the slope. On short final to 14 with any wind there is often an updraft that will cause the aircraft to "balloon" above the desired slope. If it happens when you have 1510' to work with, you either, slip or go around (for the record, I've done both). Yes, this a unique airport....but there are many unique airports in this country, some have steeper grades, some are nestled in valleys surrounded by steep terrain, some have oddball noise abatement procedures and many have weird wind characteristics. So, I have to say I'm not persuaded by your arguments that slips are poor technique. They are one very usable technique in a complete skill set. Are they often a necessity? That depends on what conditions the pilot regularly encounters.  The notion that using a slip under any condition other than clearing an obstacle necessitates additional training is false in my opinion; on the contrary, I think a pilot that is uncomfortable with the use of a safe and effective tool and the knowledge of when to use it has a much greater need for additional training than the one who finds themselves high and fast for whatever reason whether it be their own doing or external circumstances. To each their own...

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, M016576 said:

At some point in the flare, though, you are transitioning to a side-slip (not a forward slip, per se)- otherwise you're landing on a loaded main and chewing up a tire (or worse, collapsing a gear).  What's the disadvantage or reason that it's bad technique to use a side slip vs. a crab in a mooney, assuming both pilots are on glideslope, and on speed?  The reason I ask is I've been using side slips my whole aviation career because that was how I was trained in navy flight school (so I'm most comfortable with that)- but I'm open to trying crabbing- or, if it's a safety issue, I'd like to know.

heres why I like using a side-slip vs crab:

1) looking out the front of the aircraft, vs side window.

2) don't need to "kick out" the rudder during the flare or ground effect to align fuselage: you're already stabilized in a landable condition going into the flare.

3) slightly higher power setting to achieve same glideslope/ias during gusty conditions.  This can also be a disadvantage- but if the approach needs to be terminated, or you hit a downdraft: just level the wings and you get a little extra instant lift.  This is probably a much bigger deal in the jets I fly do to engine spool up.  Our piston aircraft have near instant power response anyway.

I haven't been instructing in mooneys for 23 years- and the pilots I do instruct are already somewhat experienced when they get to me- so if I'm missing something that's GA or Mooney specific, please let me know.  The best advantage I can see to a crab is that setting up the approach, and power management are the same as a no wind approach, and passengers won't feel the rudder inputs until the roundout/flare.  The disadvantage is that the pilot is changing his/her method to control drift in the final seconds, and if the pilot mis-times the transition, or the bottom falls out of a gust before the pilot is prepared- you could land side-loaded.  Unless you're making the transition higher up the glide slope.

ive found a side slip effective at controlling crosswind components in a mooney in excess of 20 knots (the last time I was in this predicament the winds were 50 degrees off runway axis: I was diverting due to a snow storm at my intended field- this field was VMC, but high winds- 30G40... the landing rollout was very short.). I don't takeoff/plan to fly in high crosswinds, but I'm prepared in the event I am forced to deal with them.  I have yet to try crabbing- maybe that will be my next "mooney training event."

edit: I do agree that if you're using a forward slip because you're high on glideslope- chances are that could have been prevented by being ahead of the aircraft... unless of course it's a slam dunk, or there's an obstacle.  Even with the slam dunk- you can sometimes expect it... and (heresy in a mooney) slow down (JK!)

If you want to work hard and take up brain energy (constantly adjusting alignment with the runway) that can better be used in other ways, then continue to use a side slip in crosswind approaches.  If you want to not have a good feel with the amount of crosswind you have to deal with, then continue to use a side slip.

If you want to clearly see the crosswind component you have to deal with, if you clearly want to see when it would be appropriate to use partial flaps, if you clearly want to see the appropriate airspeed to use during a crosswind approach, then the crab transitioning to wing low in the flare is the most suitable manner to fly a crosswind approach.

I personally don't like seeing any more than a 15° crab on final.  If I line up on final and see 25°, for example, at my normal approach speed of 75 knots, then I know from the rule of six's that the crosswind component is 1.25 x 25, approximately equal to 30 knots.  That will not work, so I reduce flaps to approach or no flaps and increase speed until I see only 15°.  At those kind of crosswind components the airplane must be flown onto the runway.  The good news is that the stall speed has increased so the plane is done flying sooner when on the ground.

The crab to a transition to wing low becomes simple and automatic with just a little practice.  Rudder for runway alignment and aileron to control drift.

One last comment from 48 years of flying:  If you want to rationalize doing it some other way, I really understand.  As I've told a very few students whom I've recommended to get another instructor because they didn't want to listen to me, I see where you are, I see where you need to get, and I'm not the one to get you there.

[donkaye]

15 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I think most of us are aware of and have a great deal of respect for your experience. I can't think of a time in these pages where we've differed on much (I believe we were in total agreement just a few pages ago).  With all of the landings you've done, how much of it was done instructing a pilot in the say their "new to them" C model which they wanted to base out of a <2000' strip. There is an airport near me that fits that description and there is a C model based there.  It's a 1840' strip  located on a plateau with a 2.1% grade it has a 244DT on the downhill runway and a 330'DT on the uphill runway.  It is favorable to land uphill until winds negate the slope. On short final to 14 with any wind there is often an updraft that will cause the aircraft to "balloon" above the desired slope. If it happens when you have 1510' to work with, you either, slip or go around (for the record, I've done both). Yes, this a unique airport....but there are many unique airports in this country, some have steeper grades, some are nestled in valleys surrounded by steep terrain, some have oddball noise abatement procedures and many have weird wind characteristics. So, I have to say I'm not persuaded by your arguments that slips are poor technique. They are one very usable technique in a complete skill set. Are they often a necessity? That depends on what conditions the pilot regularly encounters.  The notion that using a slip under any condition other than clearing an obstacle necessitates additional training is false in my opinion; on the contrary, I think a pilot that is uncomfortable with the use of a safe and effective tool and the knowledge of when to use it has a much greater need for additional training than the one who finds themselves high and fast for whatever reason whether it be their own doing or external circumstances. To each their own...

I've taught the Mooney PPP Mountain Flying Course in Colorado numerous times and have seen strange runways.  If you have to slip, you are working too hard.

So I quote myself once again: I see where you are, I see where you need to get, and I'm not the one to get you there.

[M016576]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

If you want to work hard and take up brain energy (constantly adjusting alignment with the runway) that can better be used in other ways, then continue to use a side slip in crosswind approaches.  If you want to not have a good feel with the amount of crosswind you have to deal with, then continue to use a side slip.

If you want to clearly see the crosswind component you have to deal with, if you clearly want to see when it would be appropriate to use partial flaps, if you clearly want to see the appropriate airspeed to use during a crosswind approach, then the crab transitioning to wing low in the flare is the most suitable manner to fly a crosswind approach.

I personally don't like seeing any more than a 15° crab on final.  If I line up on final and see 25°, for example, at my normal approach speed of 75 knots, then I know from the rule of six's that the crosswind component is 1.25 x 25, approximately equal to 30 knots.  That will not work, so I reduce flaps to approach or no flaps and increase speed until I see only 15°.  At those kind of crosswind components the airplane must be flown onto the runway.  The good news is that the stall speed has increased so the plane is done flying sooner when on the ground.

The crab to a transition to wing low becomes simple and automatic with just a little practice.  Rudder for runway alignment and aileron to control drift.

One last comment from 48 years of flying:  If you want to rationalize doing it some other way, I really understand.  As I've told a very few students whom I've recommended to get another instructor because they didn't want to listen to me, I see where you are, I see where you need to get, and I'm not the one to get you there.

I'm not "rationalizing" anything- I'm asking some open questions regarding your opinions and techniques.  I'm looking for ways to improve my skillset... something that I've been continuing to refine over 23 years of flying, both as a civilian and military instructor pilot.  I don't know what I posted in my previous post that caused this perceived "close-minded" attitude, but that wasn't my intention: I merely wanted to know what Mooney specific issue would cause you to recommend against side-slips in a crosswind scenario.

Just so we're clear: I'm not challenging you, or your instruction, or your methodology.  I'm attempting to figure out why you prefer your technique, so I can ascertain whether or not I will adopt it.  I do so out of respect for your years as a mooney specific instructor, with tons of time teaching people in these aircraft.  with that in mind-

I don't find sideslips to cause me to "work hard" or "take up brain energy".  No more so than crabbing.  I just stabilize the Line of sight rate just like you do in your transition to land: wing down to control drift, top rudder for runway alignment. "wing down, top rudder."  In a crab, you have to play out rudder to control runway alignment, while looking out the side window to stabilize line of sight rate (ie, maintain centerline).  both require a little practice and training: neither are difficult, nor overtasking.   

I would contend, though, that you are not "feeling" the winds in either circumstance: in a crab, you are stabilizing Line of sight rate using a rudder input.  In a side slip, you are stabilizing line of sight rate using an aileron input.  in a crab, you need to "do something" as you enter your flare, or risk damage to the aircraft, in a side slip, you do not: your aircraft is in a ready to land state.

OK, now we're getting somewhere towards what I was looking for: your math description of crosswind component on final- that's an objective metric as to why you prefer crabbing over a side slip.  I get that.  I'll have to give that a try and see if that impacts my decision making towards this technique.  Here's the objective metric for why I like the side-slip better: I don't need to use math to figure out whether or not I can maintain centerline with full flaps selected: I just fly the airplane, and if I can maintain centerline using my side slip in the current configuration, and the angle of bank isn't so heinous that I will scrape a wing, then I know that I'll be able to land successfully and I find this out at 500' as I'm turning final.... rather than potentially mist-calculating the wind component (my math skills aren't very sharp- as Erik can attest to), and finding out the "hard way" during my round out that I can no longer maintain centerline as I'm trying to transition to wing down, top rudder (which is a side slip).

There are other techniques and methods to determining how and when to put the flaps at half in gusty or heavy wind conditions, although your technique described above seems to be pretty accurate- and certainly a warranted method if the runway is short, and there are no other ways to get a feel for how the winds will be(asos, atis, ahrs derived).

Like you said, you can always rationalize doing it one way or the other.  and everyone has their own superior techniques (yes, that's a joke!).

I see merits to both techniques.  I might try a crab next time around to revisit the experience.

[Rmag]

Most of my time has been in a Carbon Cub; the Mooney is new to me.  I personally prefer to crab on final until I'm over the threshold and then I transition to a slip.  Normally as I am into the flare, the slip is lessened that close to the ground.

If when I transition to a slip I can't hold centerline, its a go-around.

I think the crab is easier because you just correct for the wind, and descend normally without having to hold a cross controlled flight control input.  But then when it is time to land, I can't land in a crab so I transition.  I never really thought about it that much, I just did it.

[donkaye]

3 hours ago, Rmag said:

Most of my time has been in a Carbon Cub; the Mooney is new to me.  I personally prefer to crab on final until I'm over the threshold and then I transition to a slip.  Normally as I am into the flare, the slip is lessened that close to the ground.

If when I transition to a slip I can't hold centerline, its a go-around.

I think the crab is easier because you just correct for the wind, and descend normally without having to hold a cross controlled flight control input.  But then when it is time to land, I can't land in a crab so I transition.  I never really thought about it that much, I just did it.

Crabbing is coordinated use of rudder and aileron to answer the previous post--not rudder only.  I would have no trouble working with Rmag.  He sees my point of view.