Buying an Airplane

[KLRDMD]

19 minutes ago, jasona900 said:

Can anyone explain to me why sellers put "Call for price" in their ad?  I never understood that tactic. 

They think they're such great salesmen that they can talk you into buying it if they can only get a conversation going with you. I skip right over those ads.

[LANCECASPER]

35 minutes ago, KLRDMD said:

They think they're such great salesmen that they can talk you into buying it if they can only get a conversation going with you. I skip right over those ads.

I agree completely. Every time I see an ad like that, it screams "overpriced".

[Bob_Belville]

37 minutes ago, jasona900 said:

I must admit.. this drives me absolutely crazy!  Can anyone explain to me why sellers put "Call for price" in their ad?  I never understood that tactic.  And don't give me that "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" business...  I can take a fairly educated guess on the asking price just by looking at the details of the ad.  So why not take all the guess work out of it?  And as a seller, I think not listing a price would invite tire-kickers who either aren't serious, or really can't afford it in the first place.

I can't speak for all sellers but as a recovering peddler I can think of several reasons why a seller would want to hear from a potential buyer.

• First of all, a price is negotiable. But no one wants to negotiate with himself.
• A 3 line Trade-a-Plane ad does not begin to tell enough about a vintage airplane to back up a price unless the plane is a minimal example of the breed and the best feature the seller has to promote is a low price.
• As a seller, I want to have a chance to sell. I don't want my product to be rejected out of hand because the shopper doesn't know what is really being offered. I'd like to be able to explain why my plane might be worth more to them than something else they're considering.
• As a seller, I want to get contact info on potential buyers. If there is no reason for someone to contact the seller...
• Talking to potential buyers gets the seller valuable data. Shoppers will have comments about other planes they've looked at and what is important to them.

 I displayed at an International trade show in Milan several years ago. A visitor from India watched my large continuous bleaching machine running fabric while I stood ready to discuss it with him. Our conversation went essentially like this: "Very nice machine, very nice machine." Thank you. "How much does it cost?" 700,000 USD "Oh, too much money!" "What does it do?" 

When my widow sells my humble E model I hope she'll not give out a price until someone shows enough interest to contact her about the plane. 

[RLCarter]

No price = No interest, put a price on it, if no hits it's probably too high

[Bob_Belville]

5 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

No price = No interest, put a price on it, if no hits it's probably too high

Two kinds of sellers put a price in an ad. Those who do not really want to sell put a high price. Those who are desperate to sell put a low price.

My (slight) hyperbole is to match yours.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Two kinds of sellers put a price in an ad. Those who do not really want to sell put a high price. Those who are desperate to sell put a low price.

My (slight) hyperbole is to match yours.

In my relatively short live, I have bought five houses and one condo, and sold four of the houses. Every house I talked to my realtor about had a price in the ad; every house I've sold has had a price in the ad.

Looking to buy is simple:  I list my needs, wants and nice-to-haves, and my price range. Look at listings, scratch out everything seriously overpriced, seriously underpriced, missing needs and those not priced. Thin out what is left. I don't have time to call and find out that you are asking more than I am looking to spend, value of the item be damned! I found a realtor in a new town once by flipping through the little book I picked up at the grocery store, and was appalled at the number of homes advertised with no prices, so I made a list of each realtor, the number of homes they advertised, and the number with prices--called the realtor with the highest percentage of prices shown, and told them exactly how I figured who to call.

If you want to sell to me and others who feel the same [see above in this thread], advertise with a price.

[Mooneymite]

After reading through this thread, I am amazed.....absolutely amazed that anyone has bought, or sold a plane! 

In my five, or six aircraft purchases/sales, I've really enjoyed the people and the process.  What am I doing wrong?

[Bob_Belville]

Hank, I know you love your C but just for argument's sake let's say you were shopping for an E today. If you don't count the one being auctioned by the Feds there are a grand total of 5 listed at Controller. One is in CA, another in MN, and a 3rd is in WI. That leaves one in FL that has the original paint and no info on panel except that it has an Apollo GX60. The 2 pictures in the ad are exterior and from at least 30 feet away. But it does have a price!

The only other E that a fellow in Alabama might be interested in looking at belongs to our friend "Dr_Bill"'s '65. Fresh engine, WAAS, and 2020 compliant. Bill put a price on it and I think it might have been wiser not to. Some of you will think that's very high and go no further. It's a shame, there well might be a deal in there that will never get made.  

[KLRDMD]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

Hank, I know you love your C but just for argument's sake let's say you were shopping for an E today. If you don't count the one being auctioned by the Feds there are a grand total of 5 listed at Controller.  

Controller is not the appropriate market for an "E" model Mooney. That may be part of the problem, advertise (and look) on the correct site for the airplane in question. "E" Model Mooneys will best be listed on Barnstormer's, then T-A-P.  And of course MooneyPilots and LASAR. Controller and ASO really aren't the best spots for such an airplane.

[glafaille]

When I was looking, I left no stone unturned.  I checked, daily, all the sources listed above.  Sometimes the plane you seek is just not available at a certain point in time.  We must realize that the Mooney market is finite.  It's quite possible that a suitable aircraft will not become available for several months.  

Expecting to find the right deal, on the right 50 year old airplane, with the right equipment, the right maintenance history, and in the right condition, within 45 days is not realistic.  One should expect a search to last 6 months or more, unless lady luck visits.

[KLRDMD]

15 minutes ago, glafaille said:

When I was looking, I left no stone unturned.  I checked, daily, all the sources listed above.  Sometimes the plane you seek is just not available at a certain point in time.  We must realize that the Mooney market is finite.  It's quite possible that a suitable aircraft will not become available for several months.  Expecting to find the right deal, on the right 50 year old airplane, with the right equipment, the right maintenance history, and in the right condition, within 45 days is not realistic.  One should expect a search to last 6 months or more, unless lady luck visits.

I guess I've either done it wrong all these years or been incredibly lucky time after time after time. I've bought 14 airplanes and sold 13 in my flying carer. I've never spent as much as 30 days as a buyer, very rarely over two weeks. But what do I know, I should have spent six months to two years looking, I'm told. I apologize, I didn't know any better. 

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

Controller is not the appropriate market for an "E" model Mooney. That may be part of the problem, advertise (and look) on the correct site for the airplane in question. "E" Model Mooneys will best be listed on Barnstormer's, then T-A-P.  And of course MooneyPilots and LASAR. Controller and ASO really aren't the best spots for such an airplane.

Fine. There are 119 Mooney of all models on Controller at the moment. But even if Trade-a-Plane, etc. have many more I don't think my point changes. As noted above, the market is finite, yeah thin, and serious seekers for the right plane for them probably ought not to be dismissing anything that might meet their specs.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, Bob_Belville said:

. . . serious seekers for the right plane for them probably ought not to be dismissing anything that might meet their specs.

I wholeheartedly agree with this !

[Bob_Belville]

24 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Fine. There are 119 Mooney of all models on Controller at the moment. But even if Trade-a-Plane, etc. have many more I don't think my point changes. As noted above, the market is finite, yeah thin, and serious seekers for the right plane for them probably ought not to be dismissing anything that might meet their specs.

Trade-a-Plane has 91 M20s of all models of which 4 are Es and the one in FL is also on Controller. None of the others are east of the Mississippi.

Barnstormers has about 3 Es, one in FL, the others in the west. (I find their site to be more difficult, parts and different models get mixed in with what you've searched for.)

LASAR has 20 Mooneys at the moment but 8 are Es! I don't know how good a job they might do of purging from their free listings. And only 1 or 2 are in the East.

[rbridges]

7 hours ago, jasona900 said:

I must admit.. this drives me absolutely crazy!  Can anyone explain to me why sellers put "Call for price" in their ad?  I never understood that tactic.  And don't give me that "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" business...  I can take a fairly educated guess on the asking price just by looking at the details of the ad.  So why not take all the guess work out of it?  And as a seller, I think not listing a price would invite tire-kickers who either aren't serious, or really can't afford it in the first place.

 

 

same here.  I started putting $1 in the minimum price when I searched so it would exclude ads that didn't have one.  

[gsengle]

Personally, either as a buyer or a seller, I think you risk missed opportunities by not being open minded. It's only a phone call after all. What's more important, a peeve, or finding the right plane? This isn't a minor purchase...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[glafaille]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

I guess I've either done it wrong all these years or been incredibly lucky time after time after time. I've bought 14 airplanes and sold 13 in my flying carer. I've never spent as much as 30 days as a buyer, very rarely over two weeks. But what do I know, I should have spent six months to two years looking, I'm told. I apologize, I didn't know any better. 

It's possible that you are lucky.  It's also possible you have been blessed with a talent for finding airplanes.  It's possible that you live in or near an area rich with airplanes.  It's possible you don't seek 50 year old airplanes and expect them to be in good condition.  It's possible you are in a financial condition where aircraft flaws or mispricing is of no consequence.  

Who knows which?  

However, I am very happy that the process seems as easy to you as hitting a 300 yard drive is for Tiger Woods.  I wish I had the knack for both!

But for some of us the process is not so simple and fraught with financial peril.  As in many things, it takes those without talent a bit longer to learn and accomplish a complex task.

I hope that when I find myself back in the airplane market you will agree to help find the airplane I need at the price I can afford.  As before, I will have cash in hand and pen at the ready.

[KLRDMD]

4 minutes ago, glafaille said:

But for some of us the process is not so simple and fraught with financial peril.  As in many things, it takes those without talent a bit longer to learn and accomplish a complex task.I hope that when I find myself back in the airplane market you will agree to help find the airplane I need at the price I can afford.  As before, I will have cash in hand and pen at the ready.

Just ask for help in the buying process. Happy to do so. I helped one guy buy a 231 a couple of weeks ago and have another guy ready to make a deal on a 252 any day now (may have happened earlier today). The 231 was priced under $70k and the 252 right at $100k. Both well equipped, good maintenance, etc.

[gsxrpilot]

BTW... I bought both my C and my K off of Controller.

I don't mind if there's a price listed or not.  I figure I've studied the market well enough to know what the plane is worth. So all listing a price tells me, is how difficult or how easy the negotiations might be.  It does seem to me that the fair price for a given Mooney has to be based on comps, not on what one feels something is worth. 

With both purchases, I was comparing two finalists. Using them as comps, in each case I was able to get the plane I wanted at the price that was right based on the comps at that time.

[smlynarczyk]

4 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

Just ask for help in the buying process. Happy to do so. I helped one guy buy a 231 a couple of weeks ago and have another guy ready to make a deal on a 252 any day now (may have happened earlier today). The 231 was priced under $70k and the 252 right at $100k. Both well equipped, good maintenance, etc.

KLRDMD, I need you to be my friend :-) With this kind of skill, you could make a good (Mooney) matchmaker... Tevya  would be proud...

[KLRDMD]

Just now, smlynarczyk said:

KLRDMD, I need you to be my friend :-) With this kind of skill, you could make a good (Mooney) matchmaker... Tevya  would be proud...

Happy to help anyone that asks.

[DAVIDWH]

Before any aircraft purchase, read "Art of the Deal)

Trump purchased his 757 in 7 days.

[glafaille]

I doubt he was involved in the thousands of details involved concerning condition, history, maintenance status, configuration etc. Someone else did all the legwork and research and once a suitable candidate found, Trump jumped in to do the deal.  Makes perfect sense as it is his money.

I was once charged with locating, purchasing and outfitting a B727 for corpoate use.  The process took well over a year and involved potential aircraft from all over the world.  Ultimately we found a former Lufthansa B727-100 that was unique for our mission.  It took weeks just to determine how much the max gross weight could be increased.  Part 121 aircraft are often customized to the needs of each original purchasers specifications.  Gross weight, engine manufacturer, engine thrust,  fuel capacity, seating configurations and avionics are among the items modified to suit by Boing.  Finding just the right aircraft with the required specs is often many times more difficult than finding a nice Mooney.

 

[KLRDMD]

On 2/24/2017 at 4:14 PM, KLRDMD said:

Most of the time you should be able to locate an airplane that meets your needs and have negotiated to buy it within 45 days. You may not have taken possession yet, but the basics have been agreed to. If it has been 90 days and you haven't found an airplane, more than likely the problem is the buyer, not the market. This is typically either a buyer that isn't really serious or a buyer that has unrealistic expectations.

It doesn't take two freakin' years to buy an airplane !!!

Update:  I'm happy to help people find airplanes that suit their missions.  A potential buyer first made contact with me on February 18. He was looking for a Mooney 231 or 252. We discussed various airplanes, watched the market for a bit and he came to an agreement to buy a very nice 252 yesterday. One month.

It doesn't take two freakin' years to buy an airplane !!!

[Godfather]

Ken, what would you say a good price is on a plane in good condition 500-1000 smoh, single working 155 w/gs, no leaks?  Starting to think about a c/e/g for a family member.  I'm thinking around 35-40 but I'm not sure if they are going to require 15k in refurb costs. 

I find it difficult to find a basic trainer Mooney that does not include an AP, GPS, etc but is not a patched together unit that will keep my IA busy for the next couple of years. 

Edited March 19, 2017 by Godfather