Buying an Airplane

[wombat]

@dlthig Never heard of TruCar, but after a quick look at their website, I agree.  

@gsxrpilot Exactly.  I could afford to buy a T310 but I can't afford to fly and maintain a T310.

[mooneyflyfast]

If I'm selling an airplane (i'm not) and a guy contacts me for a bunch of information and mentions that he has been looking for two years I am probably going to tell him this is not the one he is looking for. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by mooneyflyfast

[chrisk]

I'm continuously in the market for a new plane. I'd love a Rocket with long range tanks, TKS, and modern avionics.   I'm sure I will end up looking for years, because there is a chicken and egg effect.   What I want is not very common, so I don't really want to sell my plane first.  On the other hand, I want a really good deal on a new plane, because I will end up selling my old plane for a bargain price, since its expensive to keep two planes. 

Now, if I had a life event where my current plane no longer suited my mission, I would just go ahead and sell my 231, and be a much more motivated buyer. 

 

[glafaille]

On 2/28/2017 at 9:48 AM, mooneyflyfast said:

If I'm selling an airplane (i'm not) and a guy contacts me for a bunch of information and mentions that he has been looking for two years I am probably going to tell him this is not the one he is looking for. 

 

Or better yet ask him to describe the plane he is looking for, then YOU will know if your plane is the one or not.  Someone that has been looking for 2 years KNOWS EXACTLY what he wants and should be able to describe it to you in detail.  If you have it, sell it to him.  If you don't, politely hang up and move on.

The problem I have is very FEW owners know exactly what they have, the maintenance/damage history of their plane, corrosion history, maintenance status, cruise true airspeed, status of modifications 337/STC and so forth and the related paperwork.  Some refuse to disclose even the simplest of squawks, never mind stuff like severe hangar rash or inop fuel gauges.  "Everything works" they'll say, then after you've spent money on travel to see the plane, then you hear "oh yea, that worked yesterday".  I've traveled to examine "Perfect" planes with wrinkled fuselage skins, obvious corrosion in the tail and wheel wells, fuel leaks and more.   It's appalling how many owners think they have an IFR legal GPS when they do not!  

Ignorance on the part of the seller is a real problem and makes the buyer wish the seller had listed it with a broker.  I can see an airplane search lasting WAY longer than 45 days, especially for older planes.

[gsxrpilot]

Pictures... you gotta see lots of clear and close up pictures. I gotta see pictures of the panel that is clear enough for me to read model numbers on the radios. If a seller won't send pictures... any iPhone or Android phone will do... I'm a bit suspect. If they're too tech challenged to take phone pics, tell them to get their grand kid to take some pictures and send them to you.

[co2bruce]

18 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Pictures... you gotta see lots of clear and close up pictures. I gotta see pictures of the panel that is clear enough for me to read model numbers on the radios. If a seller won't send pictures... any iPhone or Android phone will do... I'm a bit suspect. If they're too tech challenged to take phone pics, tell them to get their grand kid to take some pictures and send them to you.

If they are too tech challenged to take a picture, the panel is probably not what your looking for

[mooneyflyfast]

22 hours ago, glafaille said:

 

Or better yet ask him to describe the plane he is looking for, then YOU will know if your plane is the one or not.  Someone that has been looking for 2 years KNOWS EXACTLY what he wants and should be able to describe it to you in detail.  If you have it, sell it to him.  If you don't, politely hang up and move on.

 

Someone who has been airplane shopping unsucessfully for two years is a tire kicker or is using airplane shopping as a hobby. If you have a good airplane and have it reasonably priced there are serious buyers that you don't have to waste your time with. 

[glafaille]

Speaking from the selling side, I agree.  If you have a good airplane, you are knowledgeable and forthright about it's condition, and have it fairly priced, then I believe you could readily sell it within 45 days.

BUT, from the buyers perspective, there are VERY FEW sellers that meet the above criteria.  Even fewer that meet the criteria AND are offering an aircraft that meets the buyers needs of equipment, condition, maintenance and history.

The point is that it's often much more difficult and vastly more time consuming and costly to find the right airplane than to sell the one you own now.  If the price is right, any plane will sell quickly.

I suspect that there are more than a few owners that would like to upgrade, but are reluctant to do so because they don't want the "double whammy hassle" of selling their plane and buying another.  Of course, if one can afford to buy the replacement BEFORE selling the existing aircraft, the process is much easier.

[gsxrpilot]

Maybe I just got lucky. But it took me 34 days from listing my C here on MooneySpace, selling it, delivering it, selecting, and bringing home the 252.

But I like to think it was a lot of advanced market research, and a realistic understanding of the ownership of somewhat vintage airplanes.

[KLRDMD]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

Maybe I just got lucky. But it took me 34 days from listing my C here on MooneySpace, selling it, delivering it, selecting, and bringing home the 252.

Not luck. You were both a serious seller and serious buyer.

[glafaille]

And the current inventory of available aircraft included at least one that met your requirements.  A little luck, and experience with the process also helps.

[gsxrpilot]

9 minutes ago, glafaille said:

And the current inventory of available aircraft included at least one that met your requirements.  A little luck, and experience with the process also helps.

I'd actually turn it around. I'd made sure my requirements were realistic with regards to the market. That's called being a buyer.  I'll give you that experience does play a factor. I don't have experience buying and selling airplanes. But I've bought and sold quite a few cars and motorcycles.

A friend of mine took me to look at a motorcycle once being offered by an acquaintance of his. The seller remarked that he didn't have time for tire kickers. My friend told him that "if Paul asks to see your bike, you can be sure he knows everything there is to know about the market and will have cash in his pocket". I took the bike home with me.

I really don't like the searching and shopping, and so this is a way to do as little of that as possible. It's a huge waste of my time, and even more so for the poor seller.

[glafaille]

Obviously the aircraft purchasing process is easier for some than for others.  Personally, I find it a very unpleasant process and a huge consumer of time.  I don't enjoy shopping for houses, cars or boats either, and for many of the same reasons.

Seriously, I don't have much patience for most sellers.  I expect a seller to be knowledgeable about an aircraft they have been flying around for the past decade.  I think this is where my requirements may be unrealistic.  I expect too much from sellers.

I don't consider myself a tire kicker and I hate wasting other peoples time, but dang it, don't put it up for sale if you can't tell me whats in the panel, the hours on the engine and airframe, can't provide pictures of the plane and copies of the logbooks, can't tell me if you have all the STCs and 337s, or who did your last annual.    

I'm happy that Paul and others are able to buy and sell aircraft in a timely manner and find the process efficient, fast and pleasant.  

In my case I had the cash in hand (55 AMUs), knew what I wanted (M20C), but at the time I was looking there weren't any to be had that fit the bill.  Interestingly, I recently saw one that I was seriously considering, but at the time was WAY over priced, the owner recently dropped the price $15,000 (about 6 months after I exited the market).  I would have snapped it up at the new price, too bad it wasn't correctly priced to begin with.  Someone got a very fair deal on a nice M20C.

[gsxrpilot]

4 minutes ago, glafaille said:

I don't consider myself a tire kicker and I hate wasting other peoples time, but dang it, don't put it up for sale if you can't tell me whats in the panel, the hours on the engine and airframe, can't provide pictures of the plane and copies of the logbooks, can't tell me if you have all the STCs and 337s, or who did your last annual.    

So true.

[glafaille]

So here was my wish list for a 1965 or newer M20C, and expected price to pay, posted here on mooneyspace.  You gents tell me if you think I was unreasonable.

 

No corrosion

Low to mid- time engine and prop

Last Overhaul by reputable shop

Good Autopilot - Stec or similar, altitude hold preferred

Bladder tanks or total reseal within last 10 years

Basic but recent avionics - I don't need and don't care to maintain the whiz-bang stuff - I have an Ipad

Instruments arranged in "6 pack" order

Excellent maintenance history - Service Center or FBO

Serviceable paint and interior

Speed Mods - Looking for 150 Knot cruise

Engine monitor with fuel flow and carb temp a plus

1965 or newer - Someone told me engine access is easier with later models.

Less than $55,000

 

I know it will be difficult to find a plane that hits every point but if you have something close, lets talk about it.

[carusoam]

65 and newer has a bunch of minor evolutions that are nice.  The easiest to see is the rectangular windows. 1/4 turn Fasteners in place of screws.  Machined water/fuel separator in place of glass bowl. Full rudder throw on the short rudder. Flush rivets mostly....

The E is still worth it.  More power, better fuel management.  Copy Bob's guidance on this...

GL are you officially going Mooney this time?  

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 5, 2017 by carusoam

[glafaille]

I officially went Mooney last time but the market was too lean.  Couldn't find one within a reasonable amount of time at a fair price that even remotely met the standards presented above. 

Right now I am not seriously looking.  But if the right one happens to present itself, I'm not opposed to selling the Tiger and replacing it with a Mooney.  Certainly not in a hurry.  Besides, it's a whole lot easier to find a plane if you have a plane.  Mooneys tend to reside in out of the way places, and the best way to travel to see one is by private aircraft.

[Joe Zuffoletto]

I've been very lucky with my airplane purchases, and I chalk it up to a serious buyer meeting a serious seller in every case.

I found my first plane, a Piper Archer II, posted on the bulletin board at an airport near my home. Closed in less than 30 days, and even got a hangar out of the deal.

Traded that plane one year later for my Mooney Encore. Found the Encore on the Internet; I was in San Francisco and the airplane was in Minneapolis. Worked out a trade and rolled the Encore into my hangar in less than 30 days.

Traded the Encore for my Acclaim. Negotiated directly with the seller and we worked out a trade in about a half hour.

As the OP said, experimentals are different. I spent about two years looking at a lot of clunky RV-8s before I found the one I bought. However, once I found the one I bought, the seller and I made a deal within 2 weeks.

[gsxrpilot]

@glafaille says "don't put it up for sale if you can't tell me whats in the panel, the hours on the engine and airframe, can't provide pictures of the plane and copies of the logbooks, can't tell me if you have all the STCs and 337s, or who did your last annual"

Which I agree with whole heartedly. But this was not my experience at all. So I'm wondering how I avoided all these toads before finding a princess. As I've gone back through my records and notes, I see that I never even called or emailed about any airplanes that didn't have good ad's, listed on reputable sites, with good pictures, details, etc.  The only detail I found missing from most listings, that I would have liked to see, was Useful Load. But all the airplanes I enquired about, had good pictures and detailed listings. So the only questions that I have in my notes to ask, were about UL, who did the annual and could I talk with them, how many hours in the last year.  I think that if the advert doesn't list the relevant details, the seller probably doesn't know, doesn't care, hasn't flown much, etc, etc, etc.  Likewise with pictures. If there aren't good pictures, that usually means the plane isn't very photogenic, or the seller isn't all that invested in the sale. If there isn't a good picture of the panel, there better be a complete list of avionics in the ad itself. If not, I'm not even going to inquire.

I guess I might miss the preverbal barn-find, but then I think those are unicorns anyway... But I'm sure it kept me from chasing planes that were never going to live up to my requirements list anyway.

Chasing Classic Mooney's (is that a TV show?) could be fun if I had the funds and the time. But I don't, and so it's really no fun. As @KLRDMD says, you have to find a serious seller. If not, even as a serious buyer, you're wasting your time.

[chrisk]

21 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Maybe I just got lucky. But it took me 34 days from listing my C here on MooneySpace, selling it, delivering it, selecting, and bringing home the 252.

But I like to think it was a lot of advanced market research, and a realistic understanding of the ownership of somewhat vintage airplanes.

Hi Paul,

You didn't get lucky.  Your "C" was  well cared for and equipped with modern avionics.  The price was high for a "C", but a real bargain for the avionics.  The value should have been immediately obvious to anyone who has ever had to upgrade their avionics.  If I would have found your plane when I was first looking, it would have gone home with me.

[Oldguy]

On 3/5/2017 at 0:48 PM, gsxrpilot said:

@glafaille says "don't put it up for sale if you can't tell me whats in the panel, the hours on the engine and airframe, can't provide pictures of the plane and copies of the logbooks, can't tell me if you have all the STCs and 337s, or who did your last annual"

Which I agree with whole heartedly. But this was not my experience at all. So I'm wondering how I avoided all these toads before finding a princess. As I've gone back through my records and notes, I see that I never even called or emailed about any airplanes that didn't have good ad's, listed on reputable sites, with good pictures, details, etc.  The only detail I found missing from most listings, that I would have liked to see, was Useful Load. But all the airplanes I enquired about, had good pictures and detailed listings. So the only questions that I have in my notes to ask, were about UL, who did the annual and could I talk with them, how many hours in the last year.  I think that if the advert doesn't list the relevant details, the seller probably doesn't know, doesn't care, hasn't flown much, etc, etc, etc.  Likewise with pictures. If there aren't good pictures, that usually means the plane isn't very photogenic, or the seller isn't all that invested in the sale. If there isn't a good picture of the panel, there better be a complete list of avionics in the ad itself. If not, I'm not even going to inquire.

I guess I might miss the preverbal barn-find, but then I think those are unicorns anyway... But I'm sure it kept me from chasing planes that were never going to live up to my requirements list anyway.

Chasing Classic Mooney's (is that a TV show?) could be fun if I had the funds and the time. But I don't, and so it's really no fun. As @KLRDMD says, you have to find a serious seller. If not, even as a serious buyer, you're wasting your time.

I was fortunate enough to find my J through Controller with pics, logs and within a 90 minute flight from home. The owner was up front on why he was selling (bought a Bo to carry more than 4 grand kids), what he had done wrong with the plane, where its last annual was and every other item I wanted to see or question I asked. He even flew it over to my mechanic for a PPI. Best thing of all was after we closed the deal, he let me know the previous owner had called to see about buying it back after I made the offer.

I don't know if I was lucky, but I knew what it had to have for me to purchase the plane, what I did not want and what was irrelevant to me. I didn't even waste my or the sellers time if it didn't meet my criteria. From search start to closing the deal was less than 45 days in March/April 2013.

And "Chasing Classic Mooneys"? I'd watch that show!

[smlynarczyk]

Just noticed this thread. Horse puckey... As someone who has invested both coast-to-coast + TX expense at looking for a Mooney, I can tell you that the I have no intention of buying your plane if:

* You try to hide damage or maintenance issues. This is an automatic disqualification.

* Don't show up to host me when I fly across the country to see your plane. Take note Robbinsville...

* Lie about the condition of the plane. Auto disqualification...

* I know it is your baby and you value it but I am making a business decision on its value in the market place (I may need to sell it btw).

* You feel that the ancient avionics in your plane are special, rock solid and a selling point.

Since I am on a roll here ----

* Why do I need to call for the price? Really? Is your time more important than mine?

* Why do I need to ask for you to post the logs? Is it that much effort on your part to do this given that you want to sell your plane?  If so, maybe this is not the right time in your life to sell?

I have also come close to buying but:

2 opportunities were taken off the market by the seller after I had expended effort in pursuing the plane; both of these were a high probability for a purchase.

Just this week, I was ready to buy but timing worked against me and someone else noticed the gem and beat me to the offer - oh well... wasn't meant to be. I would have bought this one...

I really wanted (and want) to buy a Mooney but at some point, the above challenges make me think that maybe I need to consider something else if I want to stay in the 45 day designated window (it is now over 6 mos). Yes I have fluctuated between turbo/non-turbo but for a good plane I would take either. I  am open to a variety of options for a Mooney but I will not buy crap. I am open to damage if repaired properly but not if you try to hide it. Sorry for the rant but the topic collided with my 2nd Manhattan...

Cheers!

[bonal]

Good thing mines not for sale

[glafaille]

Smlynarczyk:

 

YUP!!  I ran into your exact problems in my Mooney hunt, after 6 months of futility, ended up with something else.  Finding a nice Mooney at a fair price and in a reasonable amount of time is treasure hunt indeed, largely dependant on luck.

At my field a fellow has a beautiful E model.  Searching for a pearl of wisdom,  I asked how he found it.  He told me he wasn't even thinking about buying an airplane.  He was just driving by the airport, stopped in, and a guy landed in the airplane, and just walked up and asked him if he would like to buy his plane.  Dang!  Not fair!

It's often better to be lucky than good.

[jasona900]

11 hours ago, smlynarczyk said:

 

* Why do I need to call for the price? Really? Is your time more important than mine?

 

I must admit.. this drives me absolutely crazy!  Can anyone explain to me why sellers put "Call for price" in their ad?  I never understood that tactic.  And don't give me that "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" business...  I can take a fairly educated guess on the asking price just by looking at the details of the ad.  So why not take all the guess work out of it?  And as a seller, I think not listing a price would invite tire-kickers who either aren't serious, or really can't afford it in the first place.