Jump to content

KAP150 vs KFC150


Lowbid

Recommended Posts

Having an STEC 30, can somebody enlighten me what the difference is?  I did a quick forum search, but did not see anything.  Thanks.

I am also assuming the KAP of KFC Autopilots are the most desired compared to the other brands?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Stec autopilots are based on turn rate whereas the King (KAP/KFC) autopilots are attitude based.  That means that the Turn Coordinator drives an Stec while the AI drives a KAP/KFC.

Both are good autopilots. The Stec is nice in that it continues to function just fine in the event of a vacuum failure.

The Stec30 is the lowish end of the range and is two axis only. But an Altitude hold function can be added which is really nice. It won't capture and descend on an approach though. This works fine with manual trim Mooney's as electric trim is required for altitude preselect functions.

The KAP doesn't have a Flight Director function, while the KFC does. Both include an altitude hold feature. With an electric trim Mooney, and the proper Altimeter, an Altitude preselect can also be added that will control climbs and descents, and will capture and descend on an Approach.

If you fly a Mooney with Manual trim, I would want an Stec30/alt hold.  With an electric trim Mooney, I'd want the KFC with altitude preselect or the Stec 60 with altitude preselect. Personally I wouldn't own a Mooney without one of these autopilots.

Finally, GPSS can be added to any of the above and significantly improve the function and usage of the autopilot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Lowbid said:

Having an STEC 30, can somebody enlighten me what the difference is?  I did a quick forum search, but did not see anything.  Thanks.

I am also assuming the KAP of KFC Autopilots are the most desired compared to the other brands?

Yes, the BK are the most desirable and most expensive from the time period they were installed. The Century was the competitor to the BK.

But the difference is simple, the KFC has command bars included in the Attitude horizon and usually an electric HSI autoslaved. Whereas the KAP did not and could have a basic DG. If you are unfamiliar, command bars are very helpful hand flying precision approaches because the show you the exact corrections you need to make to stay on course and glideslope. In fact there are many approaches out there that offer lower precision approach minimums when such an aid is used. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.bendixking.com/HWL/media/Pilot-Guides/006-08377-0001_1.pdf

 

happy reading...

BK does a good job of making the user manuals available for all there products...

there are a few levels of BK APs and they have some add-on boxes after that...

The KAP100 is the starter level.  Followed by 150 and 200...

The KFC adds the FD.

add on devices can include GPSS and altitude settings.

The KAP 150 is a nice middle of the road level...

- wing leveler

- follow a heading

- follow a VOR radial

- follow a GPs

- follow an ILS 

- hold an altitude

- multitasking, it can navigate a radial and intercept an ILS.  When it intercepts the vertical path, it automatically follows the ILS to the airport.  It can intercept the vertical path from above or below...

- with GPSS, it can follow an entire flight plan from the Gps.

- it can climb at a set rate or descend at a set rate.  In 100fpm increments.

- you can have it maintain an attitude for Climb.

- it has two modes, normal cruise and approach.  Approach is tighter accuracy, but noticeably choppy...

PP thoughts from an old memory...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited by carusoam
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ask and ye shall receive.  Thank you.

My STEC30 works just fine.  I also have the GPSS installed.  My only complaint... during climb only, it has a noticeable and annoying wing rock.  Also, in rough air, it tends to wander and works noticeably better locked into the HI rather than the GPS (430W) in turbulence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Lowbid said:

.....in rough air, it tends to wander and works noticeably better locked into the HI rather than the GPS (430W) in turbulence.

I switch to heading or Wing-leveler mode in turbulence.  Following GPSS the autopilot tries to return to the desired track.   That leads to more autopilot-induced turning than does heading mode.  

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ability to handle rough air is probably more a function of the strength of the computer and the speed that it works at.

What speed does an early 90s microprocessor function at?  S.L.O.W.L.Y.......

The KAP 150 is pretty good at stopping a climb at the touch of the ALT button, the overshoot is typically within normal IFR flight parameters.  All known parameters....

The randomness of the bumpy road is not in the predictive capabilities of the 90s hardware...

The KAP 150 can't be relied upon to maintain altitude when the road gets really bumpy.  It is good, just not perfect....

PP thoughts only.  Sharing the limitations that I was familiar with...

Best regards,

-a-

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, kortopates said:

Yes, the BK are the most desirable and most expensive from the time period they were installed. The Century was the competitor to the BK.

But the difference is simple, the KFC has command bars included in the Attitude horizon and usually an electric HSI autoslaved. Whereas the KAP did not and could have a basic DG. If you are unfamiliar, command bars are very helpful hand flying precision approaches because the show you the exact corrections you need to make to stay on course and glideslope. In fact there are many approaches out there that offer lower precision approach minimums when such an aid is used. 

Paul - are you talking about the double cue flight director? I have a buddy with one in his J. It is interesting the difference how the double cue works from the single cue on my STEC. On the STEC flight director, you just keep the wedge under the wings of the cue and you are set. I found the double cue system a little harder to adsorb at first.

58b0480bdb074_DSCF0070(2)_LI.thumb.jpg.c36942d949152026089e7634cf3b0f5a.jpg

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The KAP A/P with a slaved HSI, which almost all of them have....is just as helpful as a KFC150. The KAP is more reliable over the long term, and the only visual pilot difference is the KFC flight director that bounces around so much it's a distraction when really needed. This ain't the same flight director has the heavy iron has.

The distinction is so minor, as to be meaningless, unless you have 'airline pilot wannabe' issues. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A nice practice mission is to go out and practice tracking by the bars then approachs by hand just flying the command bars, it's amazing how smooth and accurate they are including how well you'll command the plane by hand. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

Paul - are you talking about the double cue flight director? I have a buddy with one in his J. It is interesting the difference how the double cue works from the single cue on my STEC. On the STEC flight director, you just keep the wedge under the wings of the cue and you are set. I found the double cue system a little harder to adsorb at first.

58b0480bdb074_DSCF0070(2)_LI.thumb.jpg.c36942d949152026089e7634cf3b0f5a.jpg

 

Actually, I was just referring to the use of the Flight Director in the KFC150, (which is the same in the KFC200 and KFC225). I really wan't distinguishing between different types, But I believe its the same single cue style you are referring to since you need to manual fly the orange delta wing "aircraft" to the V-bar  to align the top of the orange delta wing flush with the bottom edge of the V-bar. Mine has been ripped out now and replaced with the G500 with GAD-43E interface to my KFC-150. But its sill in shop till we get fuel tanks calibrated with the CIES senders for the EDM-900 -  but very close to finally being done.

BK Flight Director.JPG

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paul,when you get your g500 up and running...consider adding the Synthetic Vision upgrade...this will produce a green velocity vector...a green ball with wings that on approach you fly to touchdown point...I rarely put the KFC 225 in FD mode ...it is so lntutive to just fly the green ball to the image of the runway selected.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, thinwing said:

Paul,when you get your g500 up and running...consider adding the Synthetic Vision upgrade...this will produce a green velocity vector...a green ball with wings that on approach you fly to touchdown point...I rarely put the KFC 225 in FD mode ...it is so lntutive to just fly the green ball to the image of the runway selected.

Thanks for the tip Kelly. Another pilot also commented how powerful that feature is. It enabled him to fly to the threshold in 0/0 conditions - he has apparently put it to the test. I was going to hold out for awhile till after install, but the recent Garmin rebate of $3K with the synthetic vision had me immediately adding it during the install. I am very much looking forward to getting more familiar with it soonest.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kelly and Paul it's truly amazing how accurate the flying the green circle,pink boxes along with the command bars are in concert with each other. During a MAPA course Mark enlightened me on using the green circle during nasty crosswinds. How far we've come from timing and halving our course guidance using our trusty ADF's.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The flight director doesn't get the respect and appreciation it deserves imo. It's the least appreciated feature of a capable autopilot system probably because most instructors don't understand it and have not taught its benifits. I can only speak about my KFC150. I find it a pleasure to fly behind the fd. More often than not I will disengage the ap on an approach and fly the fd down to minimums. I find this keeps me more engaged with the airplane having it all trimmed up and ready without giving up any precision on the approach. Even on vfr flights the fd reduces workload tremendously. Of course the ultimate is to have the ap engaged and watch it making sure it follows and satisfies the fd commands. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, thinwing said:

Yes,it truely is...I remember a missed to Ketchikan Ak in 1987 and a waas approach  hand flown after a hold to same airport 2015 with syn vision ,same low ifr but what a difference!

That brings back memories for me as well. What a hoot Ketchikan is! After a long 3hr flight up from WA at FL210 (or thereabouts) to keep us in the clear above icing below, seeing only the high peaks that penetrated the clouds to our east, we descended for the GPS 11 approach into Ketchikan. Lined up on a long final I couldn't believe my eyes how much I was crabbed into a very strong cross wind to keep the CDI centered on the HSI. The WCA was among the largest I have ever experienced. When we descended enough to be visual, my wife all of a sudden could see the tremendous crab angle since the nose of the Mooney pointed straight into the peak of 2500'+ mountain alongside the runway. She was pissed at me, till I got her to look at TRK vs DTK and centered CDI on the GNS GPS showing her I was tracking centerline quite well and that was all x-wind crab. She really already knew that but just wasn't expecting to see the nose pointed straight into a mountain. We both remained on edge though expecting we would hit a strong turbulent downdraft near short final as the wind came down the mountain to runway. Plus we sure didn't relish the thought of going missed with a climb that required a steeper rate than standard; especially after such a long flight. So we were both thrilled when the strong x-wind vanished entirely on short final as the terrain blocked it; it actually had shifted to almost all a headwind component.

After parking, we were again very thankful we didn't have to it wait for customs since we came in from WA vs BC and could head straight to the restroom. Customs is slow around there since they have to take the ferry across to the airport.    

Edited by kortopates
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A couple of notes.  The Alt Hold button does hit altitude pretty well.  I find I need to lead my desired altitude by about 30 feet, and then adjust with the AP's Up/Down trim button if I want to get right dead on.  By "lead" I mean if I am climbing to 9,000, I would hit the button at 8,970 or so.

My KFC200 has decoupled once or twice in turbulence.  That is not much given how much I use it, but when it happens it is not fun.  The one seared into my memory was an IFR approach, VTF, and on the "downwind" leg the 200 decided it did not want to help anymore.  I think ATC had me over a river adjacent to the airport and we penetrated some building cumulus.  I had excursions of as much as 600 feet.  The eventually put me off the approach and sent me south to get things settled down.  The biggest issue is transitioning, the AP has it and then it doesn't, and you need to get your head around that asap.

The winds in AK are something else.  We went into ANC once (commercial), it was nice and a smooth easy landing, pretty day.  Earlier in the day they had had hurricane force winds that everyone was talking about, well over 100 mph.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/25/2017 at 9:23 AM, PTK said:

The flight director doesn't get the respect and appreciation it deserves imo. It's the least appreciated feature of a capable autopilot system probably because most instructors don't understand it and have not taught its benifits. I can only speak about my KFC150. I find it a pleasure to fly behind the fd. More often than not I will disengage the ap on an approach and fly the fd down to minimums. I find this keeps me more engaged with the airplane having it all trimmed up and ready without giving up any precision on the approach. Even on vfr flights the fd reduces workload tremendously. Of course the ultimate is to have the ap engaged and watch it making sure it follows and satisfies the fd commands. 

I will admit to being one who does not use the FD because I am unfamiliar with it and have never been taught on it. I hope to change that soon since I guess I payed good money for it!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.